Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"

[Photoman15]

I'm still not getting it.

As of 2024, both the Federation and Confederation timelines are possible futures. Therefore, characters from either timeline should be able to travel back to a point before the divergence - and even meet each other. I see no reason why this shouldn't be able to happen. For example, even though Picard and crew are now from the Confederation timeline, they will still meet Sisko and the DS9 crew if they stick around long enough, because the Federation timeline is still a possible future.

Also, the Guinan from "Watcher" should still have met Picard in the 1800's, because again, the Federation is still a possible future.

The divergence has not happened yet, so logically speaking, one timeline shouldn't be "dominant" over another. There ARE no separate timelines at this point.

Two timelines cannot exist at the same time. Here in 2024, on April 15th, Q (or Picard) did/didn't do something that leads to the Federation or the Confederation. The PIC crew that came from 2402 is from the Confederation "choice". Q's interference made the Confederation scenario THE timeline. Picard (, Data et al) never went to the 1890's to meet Guinan nor Twain. So, Guinan never met Picard. Other time travel (episodes/movies) like TVH or Assignment Earth (which may be important here), or the other ones may have still happened, but for different reasons.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Cool. Instead of examining your potential internalised biases you can of course always choose to be rude instead.

Doesn't the same thing happen everywhere? In Doctor Who we have a Dutch painter living in France who has a Scots accent. (for some wibbly wobbly reason) And for some reason various Brit accents have propagated across the universe and time, (including 18th France)

 

[Mr. Adventure]

This is the first episode this season where it felt like you could see the paint still drying. Like it felt like a bunch of obligatory pieces stitched together which took away from it for me.

Why was Seven driving like that? Usually people in an unfamiliar vehicle don't just slam the accelerator to the floor and never let up. That really made it hard for me to stay lost in the story.

The punk was fun but boy this whole adventure has really had Star Trek IV stamped all over it (with smatterings of First Contact). Though I suppose like Worf's comment about Klingons looking different there will have to be some show ten years now that will explain how he is there instead of just being a cute winking moment.

 

[Dukhat]

Not just accents, but more and more, actors are being cast for other reasons rather than the qualities that their character as written should have. Take Agnes Jurati for example. I’m almost 100% positive that the character was supposed to be of Indian or Pakistani origin, yet we get a blonde haired blue eyed, socially awkward American instead.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Doesn't the same thing happen everywhere? In Doctor Who we have a Dutch painter living in France who has a Scots accent. (for some wibbly wobbly reason) And for some reason various Brit accents have propagated across the universe and time, (including 18th France)

You mean a British production uses British actors? Is that why all the folks on TV are speaking Korean here? Madre de Dios!

 

[Akiraprise]

p. 51--We can talk about ICE in here, but not Tuvix! NEVER TUVIX! Tuvix is @Akiraprise 's problem.

Are you trying to make a grown moderator cry?

Topic: Tuvix
Poster 1: Janeway is an inconsistently written murderer. Poster 2: Janeway was put in an unwinnable situation. So you sanction murder? No, she was trying to protect her crew mates. Tuvix was a crew mate and she murdered him. She rectified a technological malfunction. No, she murdered an innocent being; Tuvok and Neelix were dead. But she was able to bring them back. (Insert 25 more pages) Thread flies off the rails. Mod closes thread.

On topic I haven't been able to watch this episode of PIC yet but if there are 67 pages to this thread already I'm sure it's a doozy.

 

[Lord Garth]

Are you trying to make a grown moderator cry?

Topic: Tuvix
Poster 1: Janeway is an inconsistently written murderer. Poster 2: Janeway was put in an unwinnable situation. So you sanction murder? No, she was trying to protect her crew mates, Tuvix was a crew mate and she murdered him. She rectified a technological malfunction. No, she murdered an innocent being; Tuvok and Neelix were dead. But she was able to bring them back. (Insert 25 more pages) Thread flies off the rails. Mod closes thread.

On topic I haven't been able to watch this episode of PIC yet but if there are 67 pages to this thread already I'm sure it's a doozy.

It's a fun episode, overall, but the depiction of ICE sparked some spirited debate. Let's just call it that.

And Jammer came down too harsh on it, I think.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Not just accents, but more and more, actors are being cast for other reasons rather than the qualities that their character as written should have. Take Agnes Jurati for example. I’m almost 100% positive that the character was supposed to be of Indian or Pakistani origin, yet we get a blonde haired blue eyed, socially awkward American instead.

MA has Jurati's original name as being "Sarton" No info on why it became "Jurati". And "Agnes" probably isn't common on the Sub-continent. It's also a word in Latin related to juris. And of course by the twenty fourth-fifth Century the relationships between names and ethnic origins will become more and more distant. The last Jurati with only an Indian background could be centuries past.
I expect a similar discussion will come up about Una Chin-Riley.

 

[Nerys Myk]

On topic I haven't been able to watch this episode of PIC yet but if there are 67 pages to this thread already I'm sure it's a doozy.

To be fair, 60 pages are just ICE and time travel.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Does the Temporal ban of the 30-something era have ICE Time Agents?

 

[Photoman15]

Why was Seven driving like that? Usually people in an unfamiliar vehicle don't just slam the accelerator to the floor and never let up. That really made it hard for me to stay lost in the story.

Raffi: Where'd you learn to drive this kind of vehicle?
7: Admiral Paris taught me when I was on Voyager
Raffi: Owen Paris taught you, on Voyager. He was never posted to Voyager
7: Not Owen. His son Tom. Were were stuck in the Delta Quadrant for a while.

 

[brandnewfan]

This one seemed like a step back for me.

 

[Longinus]

In any case, I actually liked the episode overall. Going from the dystopian future to its origins in our present was pretty powerful, and given the amount of whining, it seemed to hit the nerve as it should. This is exactly the sort of social commentary I want from Star Trek.

I mostly liked the younger Guinan, and I feel her being mad made sense. Though I really hope we will see this version again, and see her taking steps towards becoming the Guinan we know. And the actor did good job.

And as many others, I found the time travel logic confusing, and I feel it was objectively badly conveyed. The punk (which I loved) definitely implied that he remembered Spock. And sure, you can 'well technically' it, but let's not pretend that it was not the obvious implication. So it is no wonder if after this call-back the viewers were primed to expect Guinan bit working with the same logic. I don't expect time travel making much sense, and I can accept the timeloop erasing 'Time's Arrow' events, (makes sense from certain perspective) but I would expect it to at least work according the same logic for the whole episode!

 

[cooleddie74]

To be fair, 60 pages are just ICE and time travel.

When ICE time travels it turns back into water.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Raffi: Where'd you learn to drive this kind of vehicle?
7: Admiral Paris taught me when I was on Voyager
Raffi: Owen Paris taught you, on Voyager. He was never posted to Voyager
7: Not Owen. His son Tom. Were were stuck in the Delta Quadrant for a while.

That flows horribly
I'd go minimal
Raffi: Where'd you learn to drive this kind of vehicle?
7: Paris

 

[cooleddie74]

"How do you know to drive a 21st century Earth automobile?"

"Tom Paris was more useful than just being a pilot. Though not by much."

 

[fireproof78]

He was also the field medic, rock climbing expert and commando.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Life is a Monkey Highway!

I wanna ride with Monkeys all night long!

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Not just accents, but more and more, actors are being cast for other reasons rather than the qualities that their character as written should have. Take Agnes Jurati for example. I’m almost 100% positive that the character was supposed to be of Indian or Pakistani origin, yet we get a blonde haired blue eyed, socially awkward American instead.

What makes you believe that Jurati should be Asian ?

 

[gweeps]

That flows horribly
I'd go minimal
Raffi: Where'd you learn to drive this kind of vehicle?
7: Paris

This would have been cool.

I don't think there's been any mention of Voyager. But it has been over 20 years, so...