Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"

[Yistaan]

Guinan introduces Picard to her friend Tolian Soran, who is also an El-Aurian hanging out on Earth in the 21st century. Picard "accidentally" pushes Soran in front of a truck and he dies Edith Keeler style. Upon return to the year 2400, Picard goes to have a drink with James T. Kirk and Guinan at Ten Forward.

Do it Paramount. You know you want to.

 

[Turtletrekker]

She's clearly gone through some shit! Life has beaten her down a bit. People who live for centuries and centuries probably would become radically different people over time in response to their circumstances.

And you have to consider the fact that the Guinan who met Picard in 1897 got to peer through a window into the future of humanity and knew that all the strife would be worth it in the end. This Guinan? Not so much.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Because Braxton's future timeship in Voyager never crashed in Picard's 21st century timeline, the computer revolution was never created by reverse engineering it and thus they are still relegated to reading paper books. And here we are complaining about Guinan.

Someone came up with that fancy computer in the stolen cop car.

 

[Lord Garth]

Some things I forgot to mention yesterday. I got caught up in how awesome the punker was. And then arguing with conservatives.

With those out of the way: I liked how they explained Picard's accent by saying that his family fled to England during WWII.

I also have a thought about "Time's Arrow". Don't know if this has been mentioned yet. Since the timeline has been changed, "Time's Arrow" didn't happen because General Picard never would've gone back to the 1890s. So Guinan never would've met him back then. And, even if she did, it would've been the evil Picard.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

I know it was an Easter Egg. That’s irrelevant. The scene was there to imply that it was the same guy who now kills his music when it annoys people because he doesn’t want to get neck pinched again. The guy even grabs his neck, FFS. How could it be any more obvious what the intent was? Why else would a punk playing loud music be meek and polite?

Clearly the punk is an El Aurian as well. The exchange with 7 trigger time sickness and he senses what happened in the prime universe...

 

[Tuskin38]

Huh, the actress who plays young Guinan is the same age Whoopi was when she first appeared in TNG

 

[Jayson1]

Eh. I would say a relatively high proportion of corporate CEOs are sociopaths. But most rich people are normal people, psychologically speaking. They're just sheltered from how the non-rich live, and basically abstract them as being non-people.

Again, the problem with the system is not "bad people are at the top." The problem with the system is...the system. Sometimes it provides incentives for the worst kind of people to get into positions of power and abuse it, and sometimes it makes good people look the other way. But it's the fault of the systems, not the individuals meshed within it.

I agree systemic problems is the root of most of our problems. Only issue is I don't think everyone is on board with what the system even is. Some say capitalism itself is the systemic problem but if you believe in capitalism your not likely going to see it as such. Your more likely to look at corruption as the systemic failure that is screwing things up.

 

[Trekker4747]

Wrong, Tuvok and Neelix weren't run over by the trolley ahead of the switch. The fact that they were rescued at the episode's end proves that.

Yeah, shouldn't Tuvok and Neelix be on the other side of the switch? Janeway either kills both of them as individuals, or kills Tuvix as the combined entity.

 

[Yistaan]

And you have to consider the fact that the Guinan who met Picard in 1897 got to peer through a window into the future of humanity and knew that all the strife would be worth it in the end. This Guinan? Not so much.

I know it's a touchy question but I saw someone ask online if racism in US is so bad why Guinan doesn't move to African countries to support people who look like her there. I didn't get the impression this was a "Go back to your country" insult or anything but actually a genuine question that might have merit.

 

[Kilana2]

Seven is a great car driver, better than Tom Paris would be.... Alas, Tuvok wouldn't agree.

 

[Yistaan]

Clearly the punk is an El Aurian as well. The exchange with 7 trigger time sickness and he senses what happened in the prime universe...

He's young tolian soran. If spock had just killed him in voyage home he would have saved Kirk's life

 

[eschaton]

Wrong, Tuvok and Neelix weren't run over by the trolley ahead of the switch. The fact that they were rescued at the episode's end proves that.

No, it doesn't.

A true "trolley problem" involves taking an affirmative action to kill one person in order to save many more.

Neelix and Tuvok were already dead. That happened. Tuvix was there. The killing had already happened. Janeway wasn't saving the lives of two people by killing one, she was undoing two deaths that already occurred by murder.

Edit: I mean, consider a hypothetical where you could bring back to life two people you were close to by pushing a button, but it would kill someone else. Would you push the button?

 

[Nerys Myk]

He's young tolian soran. If spock had just killed him in voyage home he would have saved Kirk's life

Nah, Soran lives in England. Has a place down the street from the Picards.

 

[eschaton]

I agree systemic problems is the root of most of our problems. Only issue is I don't think everyone is on board with what the system even is. Some say capitalism itself is the systemic problem but if you believe in capitalism your not likely going to see it as such. Your more likely to look at corruption as the systemic failure that is screwing things up.

Even a lot of people who believe in capitalism just say it's the best system yet created, not that it's perfect.

In a future scenario where a lot of the priors of capitalism - that people need to labor in order to generate enough surplus value to create goods and services for others - suddenly there are a number of new economic possibilities which arise which heretofore we could not have considered.

 

[J. Frank Doobie]

Again, the problem with the system is not "bad people are at the top." The problem with the system is...the system.

Let me just say: YES. People do what they can get away with, and if we give them a lot of power, they will abuse it. An "evolved" society is not one in which every individual is a good actor, but one where bad actors are prevented from doing harm.

Highlights:

• I really think Ito Aghayere did a very nice job as "young" Guinan. As a matter of fact, there was a J-cut in one scene, where we hear her before we see her, and it truly sounded like Whoopi.
• On that note, I'm kind of astounded people are bothered by the recasting. "Time's Arrow" was 30 years ago... It's okay to recast. Let's try to avoid sounding like Star Wars fans, here, lol. The insistence that actors portray their characters from decades ago, and somehow still look like it's not decades later, I dunno, verges on some weird fan entitlement, but I realize I'm oversimplifying here.
• Regarding continuity, I think it makes sense that this is a different timeline, so "Time's Arrow" never happened. And even if it did ... well, I guess I just don't care much.
• Jurati and the Queen --- still spectacular, very excited that this is a lynchpin of the season.
• Congrats to Santiago Cabrera for delivering what could have been a too-on-the-nose little joke monologue extremely well. I love this guy!
• I liked the weird Q stinger. Very weird! Very fun!

Dimlights:

• Definitely a slower episode (though not "filler," I think), which wouldn't be too bad, though I think this one suffered from some clunky dialogue.
• Car chase -- meh. The performances were good, the set piece was pretty underwhelming.
• I wish Seven would have had a little line about Tom Paris teaching her how to drive a car.
• I wish the braking for transport was explained differently (I think humans could calculate beaming a slow-moving object pretty well) and chalked up the need to brake as "the car will keep moving, uncontrolled" and the 25th century folks kinda forgot that little bit of crude physics, like they didn't realize cars will keep moving even when you're not accelerating them).
• I like all the plot beats, including the social commentary, but the writing in those scenes was very ham-fisted. Just needed to workshop that dialogue more, I think.
• Intrigued about not-Laris as the supervisor. Surely the individual to whom she is assigned is Jean-Luc himself, or his ancestor?

 

[Sci]

Someone came up with that fancy computer in the stolen cop car.

I didn't quite follow why Raffi couldn't have just hacked their wifi through her tricorder in the lobby instead of needing to be near the computer in the cop car. Although given her mood, maybe she just wanted to hijack a cop car -- which is legit.

Huh, the actress who plays young Guinan is the same age Whoopi was when she first appeared in TNG

Whaaaaaaaaaaat?

I know it's a touchy question but I saw someone ask online if racism in US is so bad why Guinan doesn't move to African countries to support people who look like her there. I didn't get the impression this was a "Go back to your country" insult or anything but actually a genuine question that might have merit.

I think Guinan just wasn't willing to forsake the oppressed and the marginalized of the United States.

No, it doesn't.

A true "trolley problem" involves taking an affirmative action to kill one person in order to save many more.

Neelix and Tuvok were already dead. That happened. Tuvix was there. The killing had already happened. Janeway wasn't saving the lives of two people by killing one, she was undoing two deaths that already occurred by murder.

I would go one step further and argue that she didn't un-do Tuvok's and Neelix's deaths -- she just created new copies of them. Tuvok and Neelix are still dead, and the people we called by their names for the rest of the series were entirely separate beings.

 

[fireproof78]

I would go one step further and argue that she didn't un-do Tuvok's and Neelix's deaths -- she just created new copies of them. Tuvok and Neelix are still dead, and the people we called by their names for the rest of the series were entirely separate beings.

Just like Harry Kim.

Poor, dumb, Harry*


*with due respect to SF Debris.

 

[Yistaan]

• On that note, I'm kind of astounded people are bothered by the recasting. "Time's Arrow" was 30 years ago... It's okay to recast. Let's try to avoid sounding like Star Wars fans, here, lol. The insistence that actors portray their characters from decades ago, and somehow still look like it's not decades later, I dunno, verges on some weird fan entitlement, but I realize I'm oversimplifying here.

Except I don't know where you're getting the idea whole swaths of people are bothered by the recasting. I've been haunting here and reddit and the complaints are the non-mention of Time's Arrow, not the recasting.

In fact even new Guinan actress Ito Aghayere was also initially confused by the non-mention of Time's Arrow: https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/st...inan-ito-aghayere-whoopi-goldberg-1235213292/ , and I really, really doubt she's going to be a critic of her own casting in the role of Guinan. The two complaints (recasting, non-mention of Time's Arrow) are not connected.

My complaint is the non-mention of Time's Arrow, not the recasting. Personally, I like the recasting and I mean no offense or disparagement or anything in saying this but as a straight male viewer I find Ito's Guinan a lot "hotter" than Whoopi's (sorry Whoopi). I want to see Ito's Guinan in Strange New Worlds fighting the Borg or something.

 

[Amaris]

I didn't quite follow why Raffi couldn't have just hacked their wifi through her tricorder in the lobby instead of needing to be near the computer in the cop car. Although given her mood, maybe she just wanted to hijack a cop car -- which is legit.

Oh, Raffi definitely wanted to get up to some bullshit.

 

[Tuskin38]

Whaaaaaaaaaaat?

Yeah, I saw people saying she was 'too young' so I did the math.