How can future shows retcon the errors of Star Trek Picard?

[JoseNoodles]

That sounds like something fascists would do.

I recall an episode of Voyager where the Doctor states the ship's computer monitors the crews' brainwaves, which seems like a huge invasion of privacy. Didn't seem to help with Michael Jonas or Seska though...

 

[BillJ]

I recall an episode of Voyager where the Doctor states the ship's computer monitors the crews' brainwave, which seems like a huge invasion of privacy. Didn't seem to help with Michael Jonas or Seska though...

I'm not sure that the 24th century Federation is as free of a society as folks like to think it is. I imagine there are records of EVERYTHING one does tracked by a multitude of databases.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

That is the whole danger of time travel. You don't know what is and what isn't important to the time stream. Until you actually change it.

Take Captain Christopher from "Tomorrow is Yesterday". Without further research, they take him back to a future where he never had a son that led the first Saturn mission. Or Edith Keeler, whose death is prevented by McCoy and wipes out the timeline where the Federation is formed.

Sometimes you just have to live and realize life is full of risks that you can't wish away.

Just because it's dangerous, doesn't mean you don't live with the risks and move on with life.

As of 2378, there are 40 some occaisions noted by the UFP of Time Travel.

In the 25th century, time travel was mostly possible but still risky

As of the 26th century, historians and anthropologists used time-pods to travel through time to observe historical events.

In the 29th century, the Federation had the ability to scan time as well as space, and travel back (and presumably forward) in time to attempt to fix issues and anomalies.

In the 31st century, time travel was commonplace. Federation temporal agents from this time became involved in a Temporal Cold War, which eventually led to temporal wars. After these wars, time travel was banned and the technology used to travel in time was destroyed.

If James T. Kirk and crew didn't travel back in time and rescue the Whales, Earth would've been screwed.

If Captain Picard didn't go back in time to chase the Borg, Earth would've been a Borg colony and First Contact wouldn't have been made.

Captain Janeway did immense damage to the Borg when she got back home early.

People do their best when they time travel and try to make the best judgement calls with the information they're given.

They don't cower with in-action and do nothing just because the outcome isn't perfect.

I'm reminded of the SF Debris video on "Examining The Prime Directive"

You do your best with the knowledge you have, you make the best decision possible, and you go with it.

You don't cower and stop using Time Travel for fear of a worst case scenario.

I recall an episode of Voyager where the Doctor states the ship's computer monitors the crews' brainwaves, which seems like a huge invasion of privacy. Didn't seem to help with Michael Jonas or Seska though...

I'm not sure that the 24th century Federation is as free of a society as folks like to think it is. I imagine there are records of EVERYTHING one does tracked by a multitude of databases.

So basically, they have a low power MRI machine or equivalent, running scans on your brain in real time and analyzing it?

 

[Tuskin38]

I recall an episode of Voyager where the Doctor states the ship's computer monitors the crews' brainwaves, which seems like a huge invasion of privacy. Didn't seem to help with Michael Jonas or Seska though...

Well, it probably can't read them, it's probably just looking for medical issues.

 

[BillJ]

You do your best with the knowledge you have, you make the best decision possible, and you go with it.

With time travel, you have no knowledge what your tampering may do. You don’t know until it is too late.

It is like batting a piñata blindfolded.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Highly trained and experienced temporal agents accidentally blew up the Earth at least twice. Two of the greatest captains in history, Kirk and Sisko, accidentally erased the Federation. You'd need to be a Q or a Time Lord to be qualified to mess with time safely.

 

[JoseNoodles]

Well, it probably can't read them, it's probably just looking for medical issues.

Yeah I don't think people's thoughts are being read, but still seems really invasive.

 

[BillJ]

Highly trained and experienced temporal agents accidentally blew up the Earth at least twice. Two of the greatest captains in history, Kirk and Sisko, accidentally erased the Federation. You'd need to be a Q or a Time Lord to be qualified to mess with time safely.

Yeah. There is an incredible amount of silliness involved in using time travel to reverse things that don’t go the Federation’s way.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

With time travel, you have no knowledge what your tampering may do. You don’t know until it is too late.

It is like batting a piñata blindfolded.

Highly trained and experienced temporal agents accidentally blew up the Earth at least twice. Two of the greatest captains in history, Kirk and Sisko, accidentally erased the Federation. You'd need to be a Q or a Time Lord to be qualified to mess with time safely.

And yet StarFleet still time travels long before it's standardized.

During the Early / Pioneering years of Flight, plenty of people died making crappy planes learning about flight.

I'm betting Time Travel is in a similar situation given what we know of it.

As of 2378, there are 40 some occaisions noted by the UFP of Time Travel.

In the 25th century, time travel was mostly possible but still risky

As of the 26th century, historians and anthropologists used time-pods to travel through time to observe historical events.

In the 29th century, the Federation had the ability to scan time as well as space, and travel back (and presumably forward) in time to attempt to fix issues and anomalies.

In the 31st century, time travel was commonplace. Federation temporal agents from this time became involved in a Temporal Cold War, which eventually led to temporal wars. After these wars, time travel was banned and the technology used to travel in time was destroyed.

By the 26th century, time travel is common that they use Time-Pods to travel back in time to observe historical events.

 

[fireproof78]

That's not the same as changing events.

 

[Lord Garth]

I see it like this: Picard is not a flaw. Excluding First Contact, it's the TNG Movies that were the flaw. Picard is the correction.

The reason I think Picard even exists at all is because the TNG Movies weren't a satisfying continuation of TNG because if they were, then they wouldn't have wanted to revisit those characters because they wouldn't have wanted to ruin the send-off they had. The TOS Movies ended with proper closure, the TNG Movies didn't.

 

[The Wormhole]

I mean, even when time travel was incredibly common, we see the supposed experts were always bumbling about and accidentally wiping the Federation from existence anyway. Earth gets destroyed with evidence that Voyager was involved, Timefleet sends a ship to destroy Voyager, which ends up triggering the very sequence of events that leads to Earth's destruction. The mysterious Future Guy destroys an alien colony and frames Captain Archer. Mr. Daniels removes Archer from the 22nd century, creating an alternate timeline where the Federation never exists and humanity is seemingly extinct.

Combined with all the times the Federation's existence was accidentally erased in the other shows due to screw-ups made in various time travel episodes, and I can understand very much why everyone in the 32nd century has outlawed time travel.

 

[Sci]

Yet the UFP manages to exist in the 24th century while Telepathy is at play as a part of daily life & part of common society.

Because when those telepathic Federates live alongside non-telepathic Federates, they respect their non-telepathic neighbors' right to "psychic privacy." That is a very different thing from giving agents of the state carte blanche to probe into the minds of anyone with a security clearance.

And condemn billions more lives to oblivion. No way.

You sound alot like Dr. Phlox and are holding back the genetic cure to that disease that was ravaging the species society for some hypothetical boogey men that might come about later in the civilizations course.

Instead of saving known lives now, you're worried about hypotheticals in the future.

The only person advocating for a course of action on the basis of hypothetical scenarios is you. I'm asserting an undeniable fact: Preventing the Mars Attack would by definition lead to the nullification of the entire Kelvin Timeline and therefore the destruction of billions (if not trillions) of lives in that timeline.

To say nothing of the fact that billions of people were born between 2385 and 2399 who would not otherwise have been born if the Mars Attack and Romulan Supernova disaster had been prevented, because that is the inevitable consequence of massive numbers of people either dying or being forced to mass migrate.

Like it or not, it is the nature of linear time that we have to accept the consequences of our choices.

Our own Subjective Past has over 90,000 dead and countless Romulan lives dead because the evacuation never happened.
Those are lives known to be lost because of one person's betrayal.

Yes.

I agree here, though I would hope more Federates would be reasonable enough to understand that Nedar's infiltration is not necessarily an indication of Starfleet incompetence. "It is possible to do nothing wrong and still lose."

That's not realistic, The UFP citizens expects far more from the UFP Government / StarFleet.

Says who? There's nothing in the canon establishing anything like that.

Common people in modern day society who expects perfection from their Public Servants, but will crucify everybody who fail even in the slightest bit and demands their abolishment should they fail. I see it all the time in current public media.

Your entire chain of logic is dependent upon the a priori assumption that Federation political culture is as irrationally self-destructive and violent as real-life U.S. political culture today. I reject that assumption as both irrational (our culture will either need to abandon those impulses or it will destroy itself in time) and as antithetical to the entire spirit of Star Trek (which, even at its darkest, has always posited a future where reason and progress win out over fear and domination).

We don't know much detail at all about the relationship between the Tal Shiar and the RFS. Nor even about the relationship between the Tal Shiar and the Zhat Vash. For all we know, the Tal Shiar leadership might launch a campaign to purge Zhat Vash agents from their organization.

Or they might reward Oh and make her the head of the Tal Shiar for all the damage she did to StarFleet and the UFP.

1. Her name is Nedar; "Oh" was her alias.

2. They might! We have no data whatsoever either way. But I think the possibility that the Tal Shiar, realizing that Nedar and the Zhat Vash are responsible for billions of Romulan deaths, might want to punish her and purge themselves of the Zhat Vash, is plausible.

Picard wasn't even on the Enterprise-D when the attack by the Duras Sisters happened.
Picard was planet-side dealing with Dr. Tolian Soran.

So what? Still makes no sense that they'd respond to one ship loss with nine years of desk duty and another ship loss with an immediate re-assignment. Something else must be different, some other factor must have come into play with the destruction of the Stargazer that didn't come into play with the destruction of the Enterprise-D. My subjective interpretation is that Picard quit Starfleet and then came back, as depicted in the novel The Buried Age.

Absolute nonsense. There was never a reason he could not have had both a fulfilling relationship and his Starfleet career. We've seen plenty of successful Starfleet officers in committed, long-term relationships. Picard was just afraid of commitment.

Yet in the All Good Things alternate timeline, he did marry Beverly & was divorced from her.
But after those events, he choose to never marry.

Choosing to avoid relationships after one relationship ended is just another version of being afraid of commitment.

Avoiding an unnecessary war that does not benefit your society and which would produce worse problems does not make your society "a softie."

How would you define the Dominion War?
Was that necessary?

That is a completely different conflict! And yes, obviously that one was necessary, since the Dominion was directly seeking to conquer the Federation.

What about the Cardassian Border Wars?

Also a different conflict, and also unavoidable because, again, of the Cardassian government's determination to seize Federation territory by military force!

That's a very different question from whether or not to intervene in a conflict between two foreign powers that does not involve you in any manner.

General Order #1 was interpreted quite differently in Kirk's era.

Yeah, and the interpretation that allowed the UFP to use smaller planets as proxy fighters in small proxy wars with the Klingons was itself a form of imperialist abuse that needed to end.

First off, Obama was not the guy who opposed U.S. intervention in Syria. He wanted to go to war in Syria just as he had gone to war in Libya; the only reason he didn't was that too many people mobilized to oppose him and it was clear that public opinion was against intervention.

And then he waffled.

Let's be clear: He didn't "waffle." His pro-war agenda was defeated by domestic opposition.

Yet when Bill Clinton intervened with NATO in the Yugoslav war, they managed a proper outcome which created new Nation States.

The biggest difference there is that there was enough of a pro-democratic popular consensus in the Serbian populace that Milosevic was overthrown within a few years, and enough of a pro-democratic consensus in the Kosovar populace that a stable Kosovar democracy was possible. And it is very, very notable that Clinton did not try to overthrow the government in Belgrade or try to impose an American occupation of Kosovo.

By contrast, the Libyan and Syrian peoples are deeply divided and there was never any real prospect for any one political faction to gain democratic legitimacy with a large enough percentage of the population to establish a stable democratic state.

That's one of the key things the Federation was probably looking at throughout the Bajoran Occupation: Did the Bajoran factions have enough consensus for a stable, democratic Bajoran state to emerge that most Bajorans could accept? The early seasons of DS9 make it pretty clear that intra-Bajoran conflict didn't really settle down until Shakaar Edon ran for First Minister in season three. There was probably even less intra-Bajoran unity throughout the early years of the Cccupation.

Obama did performa sloppy job and he screwed it up.

Obama did a sloppy job because nobody could have avoided a sloppy job. Forcing regime change on a disunited populace that will never grant the resulting government popular legitimacy is a job nobody can do properly. That's why it generally shouldn't be done, except perhaps in very rare circumstances, in the first place. "The only winning move is not to play."

DAESH existed because Paul Bremer is to blame for the bungled mess from the Occupation after the 2nd Iraq War.

There was never a "right" way to do the Iraq War or the resulting occupation. DAESH was its inevitable blowback.

And that's a prime example of why many Federates may have not wanted to militarily intervene in the Cardassian occupation of Bajor. What if, for instance, elements of the Bajoran Resistance had perceived the Federation as an occupying, imperialist force and turned against them? What if intervention were to result on a long quagmire with Starfleet fighting both the Cardassian Guard and Bajoran nationalist forces? What if Bajoran nationalist forces were to target Federation civilian population centers in retaliation for the UFP's perceived hostility? What if intervention were to lead to a weak Bajoran government unable to control violent factions that, say, were to aid asymmetrical anti-UFP threat agents? What if Bajor descended into civil war and dragged the UFP into it?

So the better solution IYO is to sit there on the side-lines, and do NOTHING.

Yes.

That doesn't sound like something real heroes would do.

Imposing your will on people who may not want your help is not something "real heroes" do either.

Is there even a single canonical example of someone from the Bajoran Resistance requesting Federation military intervention in the Occupation? Hell, early DS9 had Bajoran Resistance heroes like Kira upset that the Federation was present on the station because they worried the UFP was just going to replace Cardassia as the new hegemon there to keep Bajor under its thumb.

The thing you're forgetting is that they know what happens after-wards. <SNIP> Especially with Time Travel and Temporal Communications from the future feeding back the long term consequences.

The Prime Timeline does eventually learn of the existence of the Kelvin Timeline.

With that knowledge in hand, you can still change history and have all the key points of the JellyFish / Narada still happen via a carefully executed plan.

The only way to ensure the survival of the Kelvin Timeline is to somehow ensure that Nero and the crew of the Narada, and Spock Prime aboard the Jellyfish, both still believe that Romulus was destroyed and its people killed.

Poking in the mind about subject matter that is unrelated to the question at hand when inquired about.
"wanton misuse" = Seeking answers to unrelated subject matter when asked about question ___.
"nothing to do" = If I ask you a question of what did you eat on __ day. And the Telepath starts poking around for questions about who you had sex with. That's "Nothing to do" with the question at hand.

These definitions are all extremely broad and will lend themselves to abuse by state authorities seeking to exceed their remit.

Citizen of the UFP.

So what about non-UFP citizens? Do they have the right to psychic privacy? Or does being a Cardassian emigrant to Earth mean you have no right to refuse a telepathic scan if you had a cup of coffee with the wife of the cousin of the sister of a suspect?

I mean, by that logic, why not just require every single Starfleet officer and every single elected official to live inside a secure bunker under 24/7 surveillance with no privacy, no homes of their own, no access to family, etc.? After all, it would be secure!

They live on a StarShip or StarBase.

1. TWOK and episodes like "Pathfinder" have made it very clear that plenty of Starfleet officers assigned to planetside facilities live off-base in private-owned housing, not aboard starships, starbases, or planetary bases.

2. I didn't just say Starfleet officers -- I also said elected officials! Do you think members of the Federation Council should have to live on Starfleet bases? What about officials in Federation Member State governments -- should the United Earth Prime Minister or Members of the United Earth Parliament also have to live on Starfleet bases? The Presider of the Parliament Andoria? The First Minister of the Confederacy of Vulcan? The Governor of the Alpha Centauri Concordium? The President of Deneva? The Quorum of Bole? Should members of the Federation President's cabinet? The Director of the Federation Department of Temporal Investigations? The Federation Secretary of the Exterior? The United Earth Interior Minister?

Random draw of the lot by computer for a random group of Telepaths and machine operators to validate Telepathic Recorders.
They all scan together while monitoring each other during scanning.
The scan can only go as deep as the inquired question spoken to the person being scanned.
It's a mass collective group of random Telepaths and Psionic Recorders and Machines to serve as witness to their work that they didn't veer off the rails.

Then they will be subjected to similar scanning for Tal Shiar presence.

Telepathic Recording & Sensing machines will be used to monitor the subject being scanned along with every single Telepath doing the scanning. Every piece of data will be recorded and shown to the person being scanned as open evidence to make sure nobody is poking around where they shouldn't be.

Who designs the mechanism by which random draws are made? Who makes sure that all the telepaths who are supposed to keep each other honest aren't colluding? Who decides how deep a scan the inquired question requires? Who designs the "telepathic recording and sensing machines?" How do you ensure those machines can't be abused? And who trains all these telepaths? And how do you make sure the people who design the random draw mechanisms, or who make sure the telepaths aren't colluding, or who decides how deep a scan needs to be, or who designs the telepathic recording machines, or who trains the telepaths, isn't suborned?

I don't think that's fair. We've never seen the Romulan legal system. We know canonically that the Klingons have rigged trials, but for all we know the Romulan Free State's courts might have an extensive system to protect the civil rights and liberties of the accused.

Or it could be another sham like the current Russian Government.

It absolutely could be! But:

1. I think that would be boring and predictable. The Romulan Free State would just be the Romulan Star Empire 2.0, and stories about the RFS would just end up being no different from the same old stories about the Romulans we saw throughout TOS and TNG. Yawn! Bored now! Just more of the same. The idea that the RFS might actually be different, might be a democratic or semi-democratic polity that has beefs with the Federation (a mix of conflicts both legitimate and nonsensical) sounds way more interesting to me.

2. What we do know about the Free State so far implies a more liberal regime than the Star Empire. We know from PIC S1 that the Romulan Free State:

• Have abolished the Neutral Zone
• Allows its citizens to emigrate to the Federation and independent worlds like Freecloud
• Allows its citizens to marry foreign citizens
• Is sharing access to Borg technology with the Federation
• Allowed a Federation citizen to serve as Executive Director of the Borg Reclamation Project
• No longer allow Tal Shiar carte blanche to just seize control of Free State facilities the way they could under the Star Empire
• No legally longer allow Tal Shiar agents to engage in extrajudicial executions

Does that mean the Romulan Free State isn't just a corrupt sham like the Russian Federation under Putin? No. But it does open the possibility towards the RFS being very different from the Star Empire while still being distinctly Romulan.

That was those writers then, the writing staff can change and change the message.

I mean, yes, this is true of all art. But changing it to a message that violates the spirit of Star Trek would be a terrible decision.

There are no secrets allowed, especially when 90,000+ lives have been lost.

If there are no secrets, then there is no liberty.

And with Time Travel being common knowledge and do-able via simple Light-Speed Break-away, you can bring the knowledge of future events, change the past, and still retain the knowledge learned without having to actually lose lives in the process.

Imagine the improvements that can be had without the loss of lives in the process or waste in resources.

Imagine the absolute chaos of the timeline breaking down under the stress of people constantly, constantly, constantly changing the past to "fix" their subjective problems.

Imagine what Official Temporal Investigations will learn when they monitor giant chunks of your life and everything leading up to whatever incident they are investigating.

=D

Years to decades of your life, logged and monitored / processed by countless analysts along with AI computers.

All your personal actions, your daily routine, your sex life, your showers, etc.

Nothing will be safe from the eyes of Temporal Investigations when they have to scrub through enormous chunks of your life to find the relevant piece of info.

Do you just get off on power fantasies of omnipotent government agencies or something?

So you're going to do absolutely nothing, let Commodore Oh, & the Zhat Vash / Tal Shiar win

Using the legal process to bring Nedar to justice and investigate and reform in a manner appropriate with a constitutional democracy is not "doing nothing."

by murdering 90,000+ innocent UFP Citizens, destroy countless vessels, destroy mars, leak countless state secrets.

Let countless Romulan Lives perish because the Rescue Fleet gets sabotaged by one of their own.

Those people are already dead. We have to accept that and move on.

All in the name of your personal dignity.

No. In the name of liberty and in the name of preserving the functionality of linear time itself.

How about this, UFP / StarFleet will need Warrants before they scan your mind for Telepathy.

Will that make you feel better?

UFP / StarFleet can't willy nilly scan you. They need "Probable Cause" and a "Warrant Approval from a judge" before they can scan you.

At least you're under suspicion and they went through the proper legal process before they can legally scan you telepathically.

Warrants and judicial review before mind scans can happen is actually a very different proposal from what you were suggesting earlier, which was just carte blanche for an undefined agency to deploy unspecified telepathic agents to scan the minds of any Federation government official or Starfleet officer they want.

I'm not wholly persuaded that this here is an acceptable prospect, but if the supervising court is sufficiently skeptical rather than just a rubber stamp, I would feel better about this option.

Does that make it better for you? They went through all the standard legal channels during a investigation?

Yes. Due process of law is important, because it is a vital bulwark against abuse of power by agents of the state. Without due process of law, there's no difference between a state security agency and a mafia thug.

Fine, we'll require warrants approved by judges along with "Probable Cause"

Do you mean actual probable cause, or do you mean "probable cause" as in "whatever bullshit one of our guys feels like using as an excuse to get away with whatever he wants?"

So what will you do about Commodore Oh issue

Pursue the extradition of Tal Shiar General Nedar to the Federation for mass murder. Or another option would be to negotiate to establish an interstellar court that's not part of any one state's legal system that could try special cases like crimes against sentience, such as Nedar's Mars Attack and the mass deaths on Romulus.

and the 90,000+ dead and how to prevent that from happening?

You can't. It has happened. There is nothing to be done to prevent an event that is 14 years into established history.

Fine, then give me a solution to solve the Infiltrator problem?

There is not and will never be a solution to the problem of foreign infiltration. "Solving" the problem of foreign infiltration is like trying to "solve" the problem of your grass growing: It is intrinsic to having a lawn and cannot be avoided.

What can we do to prevent the issue from ever happening again?

Nothing. That is not a realistic goal and never will be.

The citizenry are demanding perfection.

The only one demanding "perfection" is you and possibly the Borg Queen. You'll both be disappointed.

I'm more than happy to use Time Travel to fix problems.

Are you more than happy to be held accountable when your use of time travel blows up in your face and produces consequences far in excess of the problem you're trying to "solve?"

And if the citizenry claims that isn't good enough? They want more drastic measures to happen?

Then what?

They will be disappointed.

Yet our protagonists in ST have done it countless times.

When the ST protagonists use time travel, they are inevitably either:

• Trying to avoid changing their subjective past (e.g.: retrieving George and Gracie in TVH without changing the past in a manner that has lasting consequences); or,
• Trying to fix damage to their subjective past either caused intentionally by hostile forces (e.g., stopping the Borg from preventing First Contact) or by their own accidental mis-use of time travel technology (e.g., stopping McCoy from saving Edith Keeler after he used the Guardian of Forever in "The City on the Edge of Forever")

There's even a proper Temporal Division in the future.

One whose entire job is to prevent people from manipulating their subjective past.

The biggest mistake was destroying Time Travel tech after the Temporal Wars.

Admiral Vance made it very clear that the negative consequences of time travel were so profound that banning time travel technology was a good thing that stopped the 31st Century from being an even worse place to live than it already is.

The effects should be limited to ones own life and not somebody elses or events that are on larger scales like WW1/2/3.

Well you're already contradicting yourself thing, because the Mars Attack and the destruction of Romulus are events that are already well-established historical events 14 years past that have had consequences on the scale of World War II -- in fact, probably far in excess of the scale of World War II.

 

[Sci]

The only scenario in which the use of time travel to deal with the tragedies of the 2380s would be acceptable is if someone's pulling a "Day of the Doctor"-style operation.

Spoiler: Doctor Who: "The Day of the Doctor"

In the Doctor Who 50th anniversary special, the Eleventh Doctor is faced with the prospect of having to re-live his decision from 400 years in his past to use a terrible weapon to destroy both the planet Gallifrey and the Dalek race [as both had been threatening the survival of the entire universe in the course of their Time War with each other]. He, along with two of his past selves, is just about to commit genocide again, when his companion Clara Oswald intervenes. She demands that he find another way. And he realizes... he could use his time travel abilities to arrange for the TARDIS of his first self, hundreds of years into his subjective past, to begin doing the calculations necessary to transport the planet Gallifrey into another dimension. This would cause the Dalek fleet to destroy themselves in their own crossfire, and would look to the rest of the universe as though Gallifrey had been destroyed, thus preserving the timeline. The Eleventh, Tenth, and War Doctors unite with their First through Ninth (and their Twelfth) selves to save Gallifrey, and the timeline is preserved.

So the only way you could use time travel and not fundamentally change history (and destroy trillions of lives), would be to find a way to go back in time, pluck the victims of the Mars Attack and the Romulan Supernova off their planets and out of linear time itself, transport them through time to the present, restore them safely to the present, and do so without being detected in the past.

 

[BillJ]

So the only way you could use time travel and not fundamentally change history (and destroy trillions of lives), would be to find a way to go back in time, pluck the victims of the Mars Attack and the Romulan Supernova off their planets and out of linear time itself, transport them through time to the present, restore them safely to the present, and do so without being detected in the past.

Gene DeWeese wrote a Star Trek book called “Engines of Destiny” with this as its focus. Things still ended up screwed up.

 

[dupersuper]

And you're doing nothing to protect the UFP / StarFleet from traitors.

Now that's something that Admiral Satie would say...

You don't think we would come up with counter techniques for those contingencies?

And they could counter those counters, and we could counter those counters, and we'd be instituting these draconian measures for dubious gains at best.

'Babylon 5' did a far better job in laying out the basic implications of how Telepaths affect society.

...You get that Psi-Corps were bad guys in that show, right?

Now imagine what happens after the UFP Citizenry / Public hears about the treason behind Selok, Commodore Oh, & Lt. Rizzo and demands a solution to fix the problem.

The citizens of the Federation as depicted in TNG would never condone such a massive overreaction to one spy. By the time we get to Oh we're in the xenophobic Picard era, so you may have a shot at stirring them up. Maybe you can join those fundamentalist protesters on Risa...

The civilian populace won't care as long as it doesn't affect their daily lives

No, no: that's modern humanity you're thinking of.

I disagree, Janeway was right

Of course you do...

Earth & the UFP haven't been bigoted towards the Telepaths, in fact they have been overly kind to them.
Betazoid is part of the UFP members.
Voyager helped Telepaths avoid the Devore.

How is that OVERLY kind?

We know canonically that the Klingons have rigged trials

You may be thinking of Cardassians.

That was those writers then, the writing staff can change and change the message.

But you seem to be the only one who wants them to.

I'm not sure that the 24th century Federation is as free of a society as folks like to think it is. I imagine there are records of EVERYTHING one does tracked by a multitude of databases.

The number of times people have stolen a shuttle from a starship would seem to indicate otherwise...

I see it like this: Picard is not a flaw. Excluding First Contact, it's the TNG Movies that were the flaw. Picard is the correction.

The reason I think Picard even exists at all is because the TNG Movies weren't a satisfying continuation of TNG because if they were, then they wouldn't have wanted to revisit those characters because they wouldn't have wanted to ruin the send-off they had. The TOS Movies ended with proper closure, the TNG Movies didn't.

Hopefully they "correct" better next season...

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Because when those telepathic Federates live alongside non-telepathic Federates, they respect their non-telepathic neighbors' right to "psychic privacy." That is a very different thing from giving agents of the state carte blanche to probe into the minds of anyone with a security clearance.

You're expecting too many people to be perfect citizens. You know that's far from the truth IRL. And with societies like Betazed & the Mari who naturally communicate telepathically, they're used to poking around in each others mind.

When Voyager came to visit the Mari, Talli just naturally used telepathy to communicate with Neelix without a thought in the world. We saw on the Mari homeworld how people like to sneak into other people's minds and take a peak.

That's a far more realistic view on how Telepaths would be around mundanes.

And when there's nobody around, people with telepathy will poke around "mundanes" who have no way of noticing and will listen in because they can.

The only person advocating for a course of action on the basis of hypothetical scenarios is you. I'm asserting an undeniable fact: Preventing the Mars Attack would by definition lead to the nullification of the entire Kelvin Timeline and therefore the destruction of billions (if not trillions) of lives in that timeline.

There are ways of making sure that happens, I'll explain more below.

To say nothing of the fact that billions of people were born between 2385 and 2399 who would not otherwise have been born if the Mars Attack and Romulan Supernova disaster had been prevented, because that is the inevitable consequence of massive numbers of people either dying or being forced to mass migrate.

Yes, I know, but there would be less people who lost their lives. The job of the government is to protect their citizens and keep them safe. When Mars got wrecked by a Double Agent, the UFP government ROYALLY SCREWED UP.

When they have a clear understanding as to how it happened (After the events of S1 Picard), they can finally rectify things and set things right.

Like it or not, it is the nature of linear time that we have to accept the consequences of our choices.

No we don't. That's the whole point of Time Traveling for the better.

Your entire chain of logic is dependent upon the a priori assumption that Federation political culture is as irrationally self-destructive and violent as real-life U.S. political culture today. I reject that assumption as both irrational (our culture will either need to abandon those impulses or it will destroy itself in time) and as antithetical to the entire spirit of Star Trek (which, even at its darkest, has always posited a future where reason and progress win out over fear and domination).

You'll be very surprised at how people change their tones when they lose loved ones or have their futures screwed up because of one persons actions.

1. Her name is Nedar; "Oh" was her alias.

I know, I've known that the entire time we've been talking about her.

2. They might! We have no data whatsoever either way. But I think the possibility that the Tal Shiar, realizing that Nedar and the Zhat Vash are responsible for billions of Romulan deaths, might want to punish her and purge themselves of the Zhat Vash, is plausible.

I doubt that, the Tal Shiar are ruthless, heartless, and only care about power. Given that the RFS is in charge, the Tal Shiar has lost ALOT of power compared to the old days of the Romulan Star Empire; and Nedar, or the women formerly known as Commodore Oh, has dealt a critical blow to their long time enemy. She would more likely to be rewarded then punished.

So what? Still makes no sense that they'd respond to one ship loss with nine years of desk duty and another ship loss with an immediate re-assignment. Something else must be different, some other factor must have come into play with the destruction of the Stargazer that didn't come into play with the destruction of the Enterprise-D. My subjective interpretation is that Picard quit Starfleet and then came back, as depicted in the novel The Buried Age.

You're more than free to write that into your own Head Canon.
I have my own as well.

Choosing to avoid relationships after one relationship ended is just another version of being afraid of commitment.

What relationship? He just experienced the tail end of Time Shifting in "All Good Things".
He never even started a relationship. There was nothing for him to commit to.

That's a very different question from whether or not to intervene in a conflict between two foreign powers that does not involve you in any manner.

It might not involve the UFP, but horrible attrocities are happening and the UFP knows about them, and stands around and does nothing. They point at their "Prime Directive" legal document and state that they can't do anything while Genocides & Atrocities happen. That doesn't make the UFP look good, moral, or righteous.

It's like watching the Genocide of the Jewish Population in WW2, and the rest of the world sits by and does NOTHING.

Or the Ugyur Genocide going on right now in Xinjiang.

Everybody sits on their thumbs, does NOTHING.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”
I'm sure you heard of this quote at some point in your life.

The UFP sitting there, letting atrocities happen doesn't make the UFP look good IMO.

The Federation Cardassian Wars = 2347-2366
Bajoran Occupation = 2319–2369

When the fighting started between the UFP & Cardassia, the UFP could've liberated Bajor from Cardassia.

They choose to do NOTHING.

Cardassia became increasingly hostile as time went on, maintaining a military presence on the planet for ten years before forcibly annexing it in 2328.

By 2347, Bajor was deeply entrenched in the occupation. The UFP sat back and didn't do squat.

Hell, the Ferengi sold arms to the Bajoran Resistance. They did more for the Bajorans than the UFP.

Yeah, and the interpretation that allowed the UFP to use smaller planets as proxy fighters in small proxy wars with the Klingons was itself a form of imperialist abuse that needed to end.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on how to hand Galactic Geo Politics.

Let's be clear: He didn't "waffle." His pro-war agenda was defeated by domestic opposition.

In his speech, Obama also said that, "while I believe I have the authority to carry out this military action without specific congressional authorization, I know that the country will be stronger if we take this course, and our actions will be even more effective."

He could've unilaterally gone in without congressional approval. He had the authority to do so like previous presidents.
He choose not to, and it got bogged down with politics.

The biggest difference there is that there was enough of a pro-democratic popular consensus in the Serbian populace that Milosevic was overthrown within a few years, and enough of a pro-democratic consensus in the Kosovar populace that a stable Kosovar democracy was possible. And it is very, very notable that Clinton did not try to overthrow the government in Belgrade or try to impose an American occupation of Kosovo.

That sounds like something the UFP could've done.

Intervene to liberate the Bajorans from getting genocided by the Cardassians during the Border Wars, without "Occupying Bajor".

By contrast, the Libyan and Syrian peoples are deeply divided and there was never any real prospect for any one political faction to gain democratic legitimacy with a large enough percentage of the population to establish a stable democratic state.

Yet Obama decided to engage with the Gaddafi regime, but didn't with the Assad regime.
Kinda weird decision making to choose to only engage with one authoritarian dictator, but not the other.

That's one of the key things the Federation was probably looking at throughout the Bajoran Occupation: Did the Bajoran factions have enough consensus for a stable, democratic Bajoran state to emerge that most Bajorans could accept? The early seasons of DS9 make it pretty clear that intra-Bajoran conflict didn't really settle down until Shakaar Edon ran for First Minister in season three. There was probably even less intra-Bajoran unity throughout the early years of the Occupation.

The more important thing would've been to stop the Cardassians from Genociding / Strip Mining Bajor first.
Then worry about stablizing local politics after the UFP has left Bajor after kicking the Cardassians off of Bajor at a earlier time. Then the Bajorans would've had time to self stabilize and form a new government.

Obama did a sloppy job because nobody could have avoided a sloppy job. Forcing regime change on a disunited populace that will never grant the resulting government popular legitimacy is a job nobody can do properly. That's why it generally shouldn't be done, except perhaps in very rare circumstances, in the first place. "The only winning move is not to play."

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on how to problem solve.

There was never a "right" way to do the Iraq War or the resulting occupation. DAESH was its inevitable blowback.

I think it could've been handled properly, but Bush Jr. handled things piss poorly, especially since his people didn't understand the local issues at hand and had a idiot in charge who didn't know the lay of the land and arbitrarily did things according to their own playbook.

Yes.

I guess that's the difference betwen you and I.

I believe the UFP government shouldn't sit on the sidelines.

You do. You think the Prime Directive is morally correct / righteous and the people should be so adherent to it like it's dogma, I don't necessarily think it's as correct as you think it is. Kirk's era of Cowboy Diplomacy was a more correct view/interpretation on the Prime Directive than the TNG era of slavishly adhering to it like it's a religious dogma.

Imposing your will on people who may not want your help is not something "real heroes" do either.

The people of Bajor were "Occupied, Genocided". Their planets were getting strip mined for resources.

I don't think the people of Bajor had a 911 service to call for help.

It's basically the Star Trek version of the Genocide of the Jewish people in Europe during WW2.
Or the modern situation with the Ugyhur people in Xinjiang.

Is there even a single canonical example of someone from the Bajoran Resistance requesting Federation military intervention in the Occupation?

Not to my knowledge, but the Cardassians had full control of the planet. I doubt they let any Bajorans slip out easily. It's probably a similar situation like North Korea where nobody can get out without risk of death. When the Cardassians control everything that goes In/Out of the Bajor system, I doubt very many things slip out. Cardassians are know for their efficiency.

Hell, early DS9 had Bajoran Resistance heroes like Kira upset that the Federation was present on the station because they worried the UFP was just going to replace Cardassia as the new hegemon there to keep Bajor under its thumb.

But that was post Occupation of Bajor by the Cardassians. The Cardassians had left and the provisional government asked the UFP to come in. Kira didn't know what to expect from the UFP / StarFleet. Given Kira's experience, I don't blame her. UFP / StarFleet needs to earn Kira's trust. And they did over time.

The only way to ensure the survival of the Kelvin Timeline is to somehow ensure that Nero and the crew of the Narada, and Spock Prime aboard the Jellyfish, both still believe that Romulus was destroyed and its people killed.

The only way to ensure the survival of the Kelvin Timeline is for Spock to create the BlackHole via Red Matter and have Nero chase after him. The reasoning and motivation doesn't matter nearly as much as the fact that those two things happen.
Spock needs to make the Artificial BlackHole, Nero needs to give chase, both have to go through with it and get sucked out the other side in the new Timeline.

These definitions are all extremely broad and will lend themselves to abuse by state authorities seeking to exceed their remit.

How would you phrase the wording then in a few short sentences while being very specific and narrowing the scope?
Your english seems better than mine. I'm sure you can come up with a regulation statement that can do all that in similar word length / sentence length or less.

So what about non-UFP citizens? Do they have the right to psychic privacy? Or does being a Cardassian emigrant to Earth mean you have no right to refuse a telepathic scan if you had a cup of coffee with the wife of the cousin of the sister of a suspect?

The rules were designed to target those in power who are capable of Betrayal / Double Agent actions.
Regular citizens generally are not my target and are largely excluded from any form of Telepathic Scanning.

1. TWOK and episodes like "Pathfinder" have made it very clear that plenty of Starfleet officers assigned to planetside facilities live off-base in private-owned housing, not aboard starships, starbases, or planetary bases.

Ok, I guess it's nice that they can live in private housing when Planet-side and assigned to a local Planetary Base.

2. I didn't just say Starfleet officers -- I also said elected officials! Do you think members of the Federation Council should have to live on Starfleet bases? What about officials in Federation Member State governments -- should the United Earth Prime Minister or Members of the United Earth Parliament also have to live on Starfleet bases? The Presider of the Parliament Andoria? The First Minister of the Confederacy of Vulcan? The Governor of the Alpha Centauri Concordium? The President of Deneva? The Quorum of Bole? Should members of the Federation President's cabinet? The Director of the Federation Department of Temporal Investigations? The Federation Secretary of the Exterior? The United Earth Interior Minister?

Government Officials can live in Government housing. Similar to how the PotUS lives in the White House.
Local Government Officials would have Government run housing/facilities that is easily defensible / monitored as well.

Who designs the mechanism by which random draws are made?

Open Source code for random number picking where the code is verified & validated by all parties & professionals to make sure nobody is pulling any funny business when random draws are made.

Who makes sure that all the telepaths who are supposed to keep each other honest aren't colluding?

A Internal Investigations department run by professionals who are highly vetted with highly credible records.

Who decides how deep a scan the inquired question requires?

Those who are monitoring the Scanning session along with what questions/answers to look for that are pertinent to the line of inquiry that is pre-written based on the case at hand.

Who designs the "telepathic recording and sensing machines?"

Psycho-Tricorders and many other Mental Monitoring devices already have those functions. They've been built already.

How do you ensure those machines can't be abused?

By Encrypting the Telepathic Data. Then once the Case is over, moving said data into a off-line site that is heavily guarded & secured with the Encryption keys held off-line somewhere else physically with Triple Layers of Encryption with 3 different keys, all split into 3 different secure facilities.

The Encrypted Data has the Data stream split into 3 seperate data files on a alternating byte layer where every byte of the file is split into 3 parts and must be inter woven together to make a coherent file that is STILL ENCRYPTED.

Only then, can you take the time to decrypt it. But before that, you need to gather all 3 parts of the file pieces before you can even have access to the Encrypted Data.

And who trains all these telepaths?

Professional Telepathic Interviewers & Scanners who train specialized Telepathic Scanners based on proper detective work and interrogation techniques.

And how do you make sure the people who design the random draw mechanisms, or who make sure the telepaths aren't colluding, or who decides how deep a scan needs to be, or who designs the telepathic recording machines, or who trains the telepaths, isn't suborned?

The Internal Investigations division must run constant oversight and monitoring over their people and every layer of personnel in their purview.

1. I think that would be boring and predictable. The Romulan Free State would just be the Romulan Star Empire 2.0, and stories about the RFS would just end up being no different from the same old stories about the Romulans we saw throughout TOS and TNG. Yawn! Bored now! Just more of the same. The idea that the RFS might actually be different, might be a democratic or semi-democratic polity that has beefs with the Federation (a mix of conflicts both legitimate and nonsensical) sounds way more interesting to me.

Ok, I guess that's what you find interesting.

2. What we do know about the Free State so far implies a more liberal regime than the Star Empire. We know from PIC S1 that the Romulan Free State:

• Have abolished the Neutral Zone
• Allows its citizens to emigrate to the Federation and independent worlds like Freecloud
• Allows its citizens to marry foreign citizens
• Is sharing access to Borg technology with the Federation
• Allowed a Federation citizen to serve as Executive Director of the Borg Reclamation Project
• No longer allow Tal Shiar carte blanche to just seize control of Free State facilities the way they could under the Star Empire
• No legally longer allow Tal Shiar agents to engage in extrajudicial executions

Does that mean the Romulan Free State isn't just a corrupt sham like the Russian Federation under Putin? No. But it does open the possibility towards the RFS being very different from the Star Empire while still being distinctly Romulan.

That sounds alot like modern Russia.

I mean, yes, this is true of all art. But changing it to a message that violates the spirit of Star Trek would be a terrible decision.

Wow, that sounds like the same complaints plenty of folks on the net have of Season 1 of STiscovery & ST:Picard.

If there are no secrets, then there is no liberty.

Life is more than just Binary Yes/No. There are many layers in between and shades of grey.

Imagine the absolute chaos of the timeline breaking down under the stress of people constantly, constantly, constantly changing the past to "fix" their subjective problems.

You make the timeline sound like it's a living entity instead of being part of Nature & the laws of Physics/Reality.

Do you just get off on power fantasies of omnipotent government agencies or something?

No, I care about Governments who will actually do the right thing and use all available tools to "Save Lives", especially of its citizens that they're supposed to serve. Not just consign their citizenry to death. Especially when the problem originated from the Government internally.

Using the legal process to bring Nedar to justice and investigate and reform in a manner appropriate with a constitutional democracy is not "doing nothing."

It's also not bringing back lost lives and preventing it from happening by using the greatest tools that are available.

Those people are already dead. We have to accept that and move on.

No we don't. Time Travel baby!

No. In the name of liberty and in the name of preserving the functionality of linear time itself.

Sorry, I believe in the Janeway method along with the "Legends of Tomorrow" style. We change time for the better!

Warrants and judicial review before mind scans can happen is actually a very different proposal from what you were suggesting earlier, which was just carte blanche for an undefined agency to deploy unspecified telepathic agents to scan the minds of any Federation government official or Starfleet officer they want.

You guys kept complaining, so I decided to amend things to make it more acceptable to your desires.
Nothing in life is set in stone.
That's why we talk, debate, argue, & listen to each other.
Then we refine, and make changes as needed.

I'm not wholly persuaded that this here is an acceptable prospect, but if the supervising court is sufficiently skeptical rather than just a rubber stamp, I would feel better about this option.

That's why you have properly trained courts staffed with judges who have no personal, financial, or friendly relationships with the investigators who are doing the job.

Yes. Due process of law is important, because it is a vital bulwark against abuse of power by agents of the state. Without due process of law, there's no difference between a state security agency and a mafia thug.

That's why I made the changes to satisfy you.

Do you mean actual probable cause, or do you mean "probable cause" as in "whatever bullshit one of our guys feels like using as an excuse to get away with whatever he wants?"

I mean "Actual Probable" cause. There has to be a problem and a train of logic that follows properly to the line of inquiry.
Not just the random whimsey of the investigator who wants to go on a fishing expedition to look for trouble.

Pursue the extradition of Tal Shiar General Nedar to the Federation for mass murder. Or another option would be to negotiate to establish an interstellar court that's not part of any one state's legal system that could try special cases like crimes against sentience, such as Nedar's Mars Attack and the mass deaths on Romulus.

And if the RFS says "No" or says "They can't/won't" for whatever reason they come up with? Then what?

And if the RFS don't want a interstellar court and don't care for one?

You can't. It has happened. There is nothing to be done to prevent an event that is 14 years into established history.

I guess that's where you and I differ. We know the answers to the big mystery as to why the Mars Attack happened and how the Synths rebelled. Now it's time to properly clean up the mess.

I differ from you in that I'm more of the "Legends of Tomorrow" type of time traveler and we change time for the better =D.

There is not and will never be a solution to the problem of foreign infiltration. "Solving" the problem of foreign infiltration is like trying to "solve" the problem of your grass growing: It is intrinsic to having a lawn and cannot be avoided.

Not in the ST world where they have fantastic tools like Telepathy, Time Travel, etc.

=D

Nothing. That is not a realistic goal and never will be.

The citizenry don't care if it's a realistic goal. They never care. They will always demand it. And if you fail, they'll want your head on a pike.

The only one demanding "perfection" is you and possibly the Borg Queen. You'll both be disappointed.

You obviously haven't payed any attention to modern average citizenry.

Their expectations are ridiculous and has only gotten worse with time.

They always want more & more, they expect perfection.

Any sort of screw up, they'll want you gone, out of your job.

That's the expectations of modern citizenry. And it will get worse as time progresses.

Are you more than happy to be held accountable when your use of time travel blows up in your face and produces consequences far in excess of the problem you're trying to "solve?"

We'll deal with the situation when it comes to that.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

They will be disappointed.

Then they'll vote in the people who will implement more drastic measures.

When the ST protagonists use time travel, they are inevitably either:

• Trying to avoid changing their subjective past (e.g.: retrieving George and Gracie in TVH without changing the past in a manner that has lasting consequences); or,
• Trying to fix damage to their subjective past either caused intentionally by hostile forces (e.g., stopping the Borg from preventing First Contact) or by their own accidental mis-use of time travel technology (e.g., stopping McCoy from saving Edith Keeler after he used the Guardian of Forever in "The City on the Edge of Forever")

Janeway didn't follow those rules, and I loved how it turned out =D.

Michael Burnham traveled to the future to save all Organic Life in the Milky Way Galaxy.

She's a self-less un-sung hero that deserves several medals for all the BS she's gone through already, especially stopping Control and the apocalyptic future for Organic Life.

In my Head Canon, she takes 32nd century technology back to the 25th century, and helps change the end results of the Temporal Cold War and leads to alternate time line path where Time Travel is regulated, but normalized well into the future.

And we use Temporal communications to verify that the UFP / StarFleet exist LONG into the future.

That the UFP becomes a Nation State Entity that truly lives forever, especially since we can validate it through temporal communications.

One whose entire job is to prevent people from manipulating their subjective past.

Temporal Agent Daniels is born in the 31st century.
By this time, time travel is so commonplace that there are quantum discriminators in every high school desk

Time travel will eventually become as common to the average folks as SmartPhones is to us right now.

Even if it's limited Time Travel for the common folks who only have enough energy to Time Travel or Communicate through time during a period that is within their own life-time.

Admiral Vance made it very clear that the negative consequences of time travel were so profound that banning time travel technology was a good thing that stopped the 31st Century from being an even worse place to live than it already is.

Time Travel was still around in the 31st Century, it only got banned in the 32nd.

The real reason why the 32nd century sucks is because of "The Burn".

That's the drastic events that killed millions of lives and affected billions.

It's a good thing that my head canon has Michael Burnham going back in time with the knowledge and answers to "Prevent the Burn" and prevent any "Burn-like effects" from hurting any UFP vessels.

God forbid somebody else figuring out how how to weaponize "The Burns" effect as weapon of war.

That would be WAY too powerful.

But Michael Burnham is our greatest Hero over Time & Space.

And I'm going to make her that Super Hero that we deserve & need!

And I'll make sure she gets the "Happy Ending" that she wants and retire her character in my Head Canon.

Well you're already contradicting yourself thing, because the Mars Attack and the destruction of Romulus are events that are already well-established historical events 14 years past that have had consequences on the scale of World War II -- in fact, probably far in excess of the scale of World War II.

Not really, Big Picture / Timeline affecting stuff should be done by the "Professionals" like our Intrepid Heroes on StarShips within StarFleet.

Regular Folks who deal in Time Travel should limit themselves to personal level stuff and not mess with "Big Picture" stuff.

The only scenario in which the use of time travel to deal with the tragedies of the 2380s would be acceptable is if someone's pulling a "Day of the Doctor"-style operation.

So the only way you could use time travel and not fundamentally change history (and destroy trillions of lives), would be to find a way to go back in time, pluck the victims of the Mars Attack and the Romulan Supernova off their planets and out of linear time itself, transport them through time to the present, restore them safely to the present, and do so without being detected in the past.

I've already come up with other methods to deal with that.

I don't need to pull a "Day of the Doctor"-style operation to get a similar affect.

Now that's something that Admiral Satie would say...

I'd like to think of myself as closer to Admiral Ross.

And they could counter those counters, and we could counter those counters, and we'd be instituting these draconian measures for dubious gains at best.

And you've proven this how?
Has their been a scientific study on the effective-ness of the policy change?

...You get that Psi-Corps were bad guys in that show, right?

I know, I've watched all of B5 including "Crusade" and "Legend of the Rangers".

I'm sure you have as well.

The citizens of the Federation as depicted in TNG would never condone such a massive overreaction to one spy. By the time we get to Oh we're in the xenophobic Picard era, so you may have a shot at stirring them up. Maybe you can join those fundamentalist protesters on Risa...

Why would I join a dead movement?

No, no: that's modern humanity you're thinking of.

Modern Humanity is usually portrayed as Future Humanity as part of the discussion on current events that Star Trek likes to do all the time.

Of course you do...

Do you dislike Janeways actions at the end of the series?

How is that OVERLY kind?

Betazoid is a fully integrated Member Nation of the UFP.
I'm sure plenty of Betazoids live off-world and integrated amongst "mundanes" with open arms.
Deanna is a product of marriage between a Full Betazoid & a Human.

Deanna married a human and had children who were ¼ Betazoid & ¾ Human.

That's fully integrated.

StarFleet/Voyager helping out Telepaths escaping the Devore's persecution of all Telepaths was the right thing to do.
Voyager could've been (That's not my problem) and had a easier time passing through Devore space.

But they chose to do the moral route, and the harder route and helped out the Telepaths by storing them in their transporter buffers at great risk to themselves when passing through Devore territory.

You may be thinking of Cardassians.

I guess Cardassians & Klingons like having similar judicial systems.

But you seem to be the only one who wants them to.

And your point being? Everybody wants something in Trek. I'm sure you have things you want to seee happen as well.

The number of times people have stolen a shuttle from a starship would seem to indicate otherwise...

That's just StarFleets sloppy security practices that lets Shuttles get so easily stolen.

 

[SJGardner]

Not really, Big Picture / Timeline affecting stuff should be done by the "Professionals" like our Intrepid Heroes on StarShips within StarFleet.

Regular Folks who deal in Time Travel should limit themselves to personal level stuff and not mess with "Big Picture" stuff.

Yeah, like that random dude who was expelled from Starfleet Academy because of a dumb mistake and decided to give himself a second chance, so he went back to prevent his past self from committing that mistake... which leads to him graduating from the Academy and eventually being assigned as the attaché of a certain Admiral Janeway, whom he later introduces to his cousin... the two fall in love and get married, which leads to Janeway not meeting the woman who would give birth to his daughter Kathryn, which leads to the USS Voyager being commanded by a captain who uses the Caretaker Array to get home, which leads to Species 8472 being able to exterminate the Borg then all sentient life in the galaxy because there was no USS Voyager there to stop them...

You can't assume that the actions of individual people cannot lead to major events in history, be it directly, or simply through a combination of minuscule changes adding up with X being distracted, thus missing a chance encounter with Y that leads to Z arriving on time to a crucial event they would've missed themselves and so on.

 

[YetAnotherSubspaceAnomaly]

Taking this time travel discussion out of the realm of science fiction for a moment, It’s pretty easy to tell in this thread the relative ages of the people arguing.

Everybody fantasizes about being able to go back and changing aspects of their lives—to avoid embarrassment, to get laid, to impress people, to get money. It’s one of those near-universal human experiences, like getting bored with toys just before puberty.

And it’s a universal fantasy of the young. The older one gets, the more experiences one accumulates, for good and for ill, the less appealing it becomes to change anything. As long as you’re relatively well-adjusted and are having your basic Maslon’s hierarchy of needs met, the sting of old embarrassments fade, the dreams of wealth and power and unlimited sex lose their luster, and you settle in to just live your life. Oh, and compound this by about 1000% if you have kids, and know that even the smallest change in your life could lead to them not existing.