How can future shows retcon the errors of Star Trek Picard?

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Yup.

Bon Voyage!

Put protections in place against people being scanned. Which should be a part of mutually trusting and cooperative society. Either restrict the information or stay out of people's heads. That information is personal, autonomous. Might as well just have holograms as crew. You can reprogram them and view their records at will.

We already have Emergency and Permanent Holograms as crew to supplement Organic Crew members as well as Synthetic ones like mass produced Soong-Type Androids.

Yet, eight hundred years later, the Federation keeps chugging along. So these weren’t damaging events to any major extent.

Or the show doesn't focus on Telepaths and only cares about he devastation of "The Burn" and telepaths are largely not being talked about.

 

[BillJ]

Exactly! The implications for Telepathy in Star Trek is HUGE.

You have spent the last several pages guaranteeing that this wouldn’t affect the average citizen.

 

[fireproof78]

We already have Emergency and Permanent Holograms as crew to supplement Organic Crew members as well as Synthetic ones like mass produced Soong-Type Androids.

So, use them. Because apparently restricting the type of data in mind scans is not a viable option. Which is why is this is completely untenable and unethical.

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

If every member of the Federation doesn’t have the same opportunity to serve, including those who are unsusceptible to telepathic scans, then it isn’t the organization it claims to be.

You can’t be based on total equality and acceptance if you sacrifice equality and acceptance for a false sense of security that strips away central civil liberties like a basic right to privacy.

There is no way around this being a fascist notion that some reactionary idea of what serving the greater good looks like is more important that actual freedom and trust of one’s citizens, and officials.

Not every tragedy is preventable, and a society founded on noble principles that goes backward on what they stand for in order to try to prevent a future betrayal isn’t a paragon of virtue worth protecting. Who needs Romulans posing as admirals to sabotage the Federation if its own leaders demand psychic probing/interrogation of their officers and officials?

 

[BillJ]

Or the show doesn't focus on Telepaths and only cares about he devastation of "The Burn" and telepaths are largely not being talked about.

I’m not sure if you even know what conversation you’re having at this point, so I’ll bow out.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You have spent the last several pages guaranteeing that this wouldn’t affect the average citizen.

When has a StarFleet Officer been a "Average Citizen"?

When has anybody who served in the military been a "Average Citizen"?

So, use them. Because apparently restricting the type of data in mind scans is not a viable option. Which is why is this is completely untenable and unethical.

Machines can also be hacked as well. That's why there are limiters placed on them.

If every member of the Federation doesn’t have the same opportunity to serve, including those who are unsusceptible to telepathic scans, then it isn’t the organization it claims to be.

StarFleet doesn't let anybody in willy nilly. Look at Nog. He needed the recommendation of a Senior Officer to get into StarFleet Academy. The only reason he couldn't join was because his species wasn't a UFP member.

Having requirements doesn't mean there aren't other ways to join. The fact that the UFP / StarFleet have let in many members already shows that they can do it to some extent.

You can’t be based on total equality and acceptance if you sacrifice equality and acceptance for a false sense of security that strips away central civil liberties like a basic right to privacy.

You make certain sacrifices when you sign to join the Military and sign on that dotted line.

Anybody who is around people who have been part of the military or uniformed services knows there are TONS of restrictions as to what you can or CAN'T do when you're part of the service.
That includes things like:
- not being able to form a Union and complain about long work hours.
- Long Work Hours in crappy situations.
- Crappy pay.
- Restrictions on exercise of free speech.
- High Chances of Death / Permanent Injury.
- When Duty Calls, you have to obey and follow through with said orders, even if you don't agree with it.
- Responsibility for others within your team and your citizenry.

Yet ALOT of people still join in for the long term benefits and a fulfilling career.

There are trade-offs to be made when you sign / join StarFleet.

There is no way around this being a fascist notion that some reactionary idea of what serving the greater good looks like is more important that actual freedom and trust of one’s citizens, and officials.

Trusting the Citizenry is all well and good.

It's those who are part of the Government / Military / Power Structure that can't be trusted and need constant internal security checks / reviews to make sure that there isn't abuse of power or potential treason / traitors amongst their midst.

Having 3 traitors revealed so closely to each other in time frame is a perfect setup for internal review & oversight along with policy changes.

Not every tragedy is preventable, and a society founded on noble principles that goes backward on what they stand for in order to try to prevent a future betrayal isn’t a paragon of virtue worth protecting. Who needs Romulans posing as admirals to sabotage the Federation if its own leaders demand psychic probing/interrogation of their officers and officials?

It won't affect you as the common citizen.

The Government is self regulating to fix it's screw up and implementing new policies to prevent the same mistakes.

I’m not sure if you even know what conversation you’re having at this point, so I’ll bow out.

When has DISCO in the 32nd century cared about Telepaths as a major plot point in it's story arcs?

When has it even mattered to the story that they tell?

 

[fireproof78]

So, the government doesn't trust it's own employees but they should be trusted to resolve their problem?

The logic of this is backawards, confusing and completely invasive. In fact, in Star Trek, they literally had the same idea in "The Drumhead" where a minor lie was regarded as nearly traitorous thoughts. It created a witch hunt mentality, one similarly enacted with the Founder threat because the Founders literally threaten the fabric of Federation society of mutual trust and cooperation.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So, the government doesn't trust it's own employees but they should be trusted to resolve their problem?

The logic of this is backawards, confusing and completely invasive. In fact, in Star Trek, they literally had the same idea in "The Drumhead" where a minor lie was regarded as nearly traitorous thoughts. It created a witch hunt mentality, one similarly enacted with the Founder threat because the Founders literally threaten the fabric of Federation society of mutual trust and cooperation.

Now imagine what happens after the UFP Citizenry / Public hears about the treason behind Selok, Commodore Oh, & Lt. Rizzo and demands a solution to fix the problem.

And Picard "Retires" after the Synth Rebellion that turned Utopia Planetia into a giant burning ball of hot gas and his plans to save the Romulans goes down in flames.

No more "Picard Speech" to solve the problem.

 

[fireproof78]

Now imagine what happens after the UFP Citizenry / Public hears about the treason behind Selok, Commodore Oh, & Lt. Rizzo and demands a solution to fix the problem.

And Picard "Retires" after the Synth Rebellion that turned Utopia Planetia into a giant burning ball of hot gas and his plans to save the Romulans goes down in flames.

No more "Picard Speech" to solve the problem.

So, erode civil liberties of Starfleet personnel, unrestricted mind access, and creating an atmosphere of mistrust and paranoia is the answer?

You're right, the public will demand erosion of personal liberty and damn the consequences.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So, erode civil liberties of Starfleet personnel, unrestricted mind access, and creating an atmosphere of mistrust and paranoia is the answer?

You're right, the public will demand erosion of personal liberty and damn the consequences.

The civilian populace won't care as long as it doesn't affect their daily lives and they don't get mind scanned because they're regular common citizenry. They didn't sign up to be part of the Government Structure or Military / StarFleet.

If that's what it takes to prevent future Double Agents amongst the ranks of UFP Government / StarFleet.

I can guranteee that there will be drastic internal policy changes.

 

[fireproof78]

The civilian populace won't care as long as it doesn't affect their daily lives and they don't get mind scanned because they're regular common citizenry. They didn't sign up to be part of the Government Structure or Military / StarFleet.

If that's what it takes to prevent future Double Agents amongst the ranks of UFP Government / StarFleet.

I can guranteee that there will be drastic internal policy changes.

Unrestricted access to a person's mind is too far.

I keep thinking of this:

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[Kamen Rider Blade]

Unrestricted access to a person's mind is too far.

Commodore Oh was responsible for the Synth Rebellion/Attack on Mars.

Here's the casualty list:
92,143 dead
Romulan rescue armada destroyed (Who knows how many innocent Romulan Civilian lives lost because there was no resuce armada after the sabotage).
Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards destroyed
Martian colonies destroyed

Are you going to tell the surviving families of those 92,143 dead and countless Romulan Refugees and Extended family members of the dead from the Super Nova that you can't time travel to fix the problem after you figured out who betrayed StarFleet and caused the incident to happen in the first place?

Sucks to be you, but our moral dogma prevents us from using the knowledge to time travel to fix it and to prevent implementing new policies to prevent tragedies like this one from ever occuring ever again?

If one little mind scan caught the next traitor from rising in the ranks and prevents them from doing massive damage like what Commodore Oh did, what will you do?

Tell the families of the dead that your personal mental sanctity of a "Public Servant" is more important then the lives of all those that were lost due to the betrayal of a Double Agent?

How many lives will you sacrifice to protect that mental privacy of yours and others?

What's the body count that is acceptable to you?

There's a Real Cost to losing information security.

There's an old saying "Loose Lips Sinks Ships".

 

[rahullak]

If you can read a person's mind, maybe you can also write to it.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

If you can read a person's mind, maybe you can also write to it.

Depends on how powerful of a Telepath you are and how much Telepathic Defenses you have.

Usually, that kind of power requires a VERY strong Telepath, something that is rare, and the person on the other end will usually be able to feel something happening to their mind.

 

[fireproof78]

Commodore Oh was responsible for the Synth Rebellion/Attack on Mars.

Here's the casualty list:
92,143 dead
Romulan rescue armada destroyed (Who knows how many innocent Romulan Civilian lives lost because there was no resuce armada after the sabotage).
Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards destroyed
Martian colonies destroyed

Are you going to tell the surviving families of those 92,143 dead and countless Romulan Refugees and Extended family members of the dead from the Super Nova that you can't time travel to fix the problem after you figured out who betrayed StarFleet and caused the incident to happen in the first place?

Sucks to be you, but our moral dogma prevents us from using the knowledge to time travel to fix it and to prevent implementing new policies to prevent tragedies like this one from ever occuring ever again?

If one little mind scan caught the next traitor from rising in the ranks and prevents them from doing massive damage like what Commodore Oh did, what will you do?

Tell the families of the dead that your personal mental sanctity of a "Public Servant" is more important then the lives of all those that were lost due to the betrayal of a Double Agent?

How many lives will you sacrifice to protect that mental privacy of yours and others?

What's the body count that is acceptable to you?

Death is accepted as a part of life. That is the evolved humanity way.

Also, unrestricted access to the mind is a slippery slope. Secondarily, how do you establish this erosion of liberties will prevent such intrusions? A Romulan impersonated a Vulcan Ambassador, a species known for touch and thought based telepathy. If such a person could do so what restrictions would be appropriate, more so than Vulcans? Perhaps access to the Public Servant's mind is not enough? Perhaps all family members would be appropriate too?

How much personal liberty do you sacrifice in the name of security?

 

[rahullak]

Seems to me if you can break a person's mental shields in order to "read" them, then you can also "write" to them.

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

Telepathic scans are just a form of purity tests and witch-hunts. Who decides what thoughts are too dangerous? Who decides what constitutes a potential threat?

This isn’t a solution to potential infiltration, it’s its own problem by itself.

 

[fireproof78]

Telepathic scans are just a form of purity tests and witch-hunts. Who decides what thoughts are too dangerous? Who decides what constitutes a potential threat?

This isn’t a solution to potential infiltration, it’s its own problem by itself.

Exactly. No restrictions, searching out for "thought crime" or loyalty tests to ensure thoughts are in alignment with...predefined Starfleet regulation?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Death is accepted as a part of life. That is the evolved humanity way.

Wanting your loved ones back is also very realistic and human. Look at Janeway, she changed time to bring back Chakotay & Seven & Tuvok. And the changes didn't get "Undone". Look at how many times our heroes have changed history permanently.

Also, unrestricted access to the mind is a slippery slope. Secondarily, how do you establish this erosion of liberties will prevent such intrusions? A Romulan impersonated a Vulcan Ambassador, a species known for touch and thought based telepathy. If such a person could do so what restrictions would be appropriate, more so than Vulcans? Perhaps access to the Public Servant's mind is not enough? Perhaps all family members would be appropriate too?

With as much finesse and care to limit the mental invasions of privacy to people who serve in a place of power like "The Government" & "StarFleet" and only make accusations based on evidence that can be corroborated and found along with validation using every tool possible.

Also, limit every possible privacy invasion to not apply to common citizenry as much as possible.

How much personal liberty do you sacrifice in the name of security?

That's a good question. Do you believe that the UFP should drop it's Security / Intelligence agencies?
Should all major countries give up their Security / Intelligence agencies IRL and hold hands / sing "kum bye yah?" and hope for the best?

What are you willing to give up? Are you going to force people to give up bearing arms because you don't feel secure that the common citizen can own arms to defend themselves? Or are you ok with the common citizens bearing arms?

Remember, the problem comes from within the Government / Military and was caused by them.

Remember Rios owns his own StarShip, capable of firing Phasers / Photon Torpedoes.

He has an entire armory rack on his StarShip which included Fully Automatic Phaser Rifles.

Photon Torpedoes are effectively nukes and his vessel is more than capable of carrying nukes.

His ship is also capable of FTL, and we all know how dangerous FTL could be.

 

[fireproof78]

Wanting your loved ones back is also very realistic and human. Look at Janeway, she changed time to bring back Chakotay & Seven & Tuvok. And the changes didn't get "Undone". Look at how many times our heroes have changed history permanently.

Janeway was wrong. Time travel is wrong.

With as much finesse and care to limit the mental invasions of privacy to people who serve in a place of power like "The Government" & "StarFleet" and only make accusations based on evidence that can be corroborated and found along with validation using every tool possible.

Also, limit every possible privacy invasion to not apply to common citizenry as much as possible.

How do you do that? As you note, telepathy is difficult to limit. How do you restrict what people get to scan in a Starfleet officer canidate?

That's a good question. Do you believe that the UFP should drop it's Security / Intelligence agencies?

No. But they have limited powers. Your mind scan proposal was not limited in scope.

What are you willing to give up? Are you going to force people to give up bearing arms because you don't feel secure that the common citizen can own arms to defend themselves? Or are you ok with the common citizens bearing arms?

I trust my fellow citizen more than the government in this scenario who can scan minds.