S13E04 "Village of the Angels" BBC1 6.20-7.15pm 21st November

[matthunter]

@matthunter She took on their physical likeness; that doesn't mean they made her one of them.

Not convinced why the former is needed. They're perfectly capable of zapping people elsewhere without doing so.

Still suspect the Angel!Doc will turn out to become the Rogue. At the least, we have an Angel that can pilot the TARDIS. Unless that's given more of a nod, I think it could be a plot point. Though Yaz has been getting piloting lessons too...

 

[Mr Awe]

At least they are moving in the direction of some of the TC stuff falling under ‘The Master Lies’ with Bel and Vinder (and by extension their whole culture) looking more and more like Proto-Time Lords the more it goes on. Like with Villa though, I fully expect the next episodes to cock up any promise this episode showed.
(Also, since the Doctor is now ‘division target numero uno’ it’s quite stunning no attempt whatsoever has been made by anyone else to capture her, so that needed a bit more thinking out. There were still a lot of janky bits like that this episode, otherwise it’s the first time the show has seemed like Who since Chibnall took over.)

I think the Division did capture the Doctor--back when she was Jo Martin. They erased her memories and then, presumably, set her loose because she couldn't remember any of their secrets.

So, I think the question now is why is the Division so interested in her now (as Jodie) when she can't reveal their secrets. My guess, the resolution to the cliffhanger is that the Division needs her help! The Flux has gotten out of hand and clearly the Doctor has special experience with it, maybe even created it. We'll restore your memories, at least some of them, if you help us.

I'm not a fan of the idea of TC becoming the Doctor. However, I have a glimmer of hope that TC becomes the Master. Now that would be a great development. The Doctor is a regular Time Lord, but the Master isn't. The Master is the product of a special being who was experimented on and manipulated. That explains the evilness but also the Master's ability to survive apparent death on many occasions. It makes the Doctor's foe extraordinary rather than the Doctor herself. To me, that's a lot more interesting! And, if that's the case, I really don't mind if Bel and Vinder are the parents of TC--although that then becomes a really sad story.

But we'll see!

 

[Mr Awe]

Yeah, I've been chewing on that thought this whole series, too. Before this series, it seemed safe to assume they were in the distant past but now it's becoming awfully wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey but without actually saying it (I like the phrase and I often say it, but I'm glad it hasn't been utilized here...yet).

I've actually been wondering if some of the scenes are of the previous universe to our own--particularly those with Bel and Vinder (outside his experience with our group). That universe is clearly disintegrating at a fundamental level. I'm wondering if they ship their child from the previous universe to ours to save it. There the proto-Time Lords find it and it becomes TC.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I'm not a fan of the idea of TC becoming the Doctor. However, I have a glimmer of hope that TC becomes the Master. Now that would be a great development. The Doctor is a regular Time Lord, but the Master isn't. The Master is the product of a special being who was experimented on and manipulated. That explains the evilness but also the Master's ability to survive apparent death on many occasions. It makes the Doctor's foe extraordinary rather than the Doctor herself. To me, that's a lot more interesting! And, if that's the case, I really don't mind if Bel and Vinder are the parents of TC--although that then becomes a really sad story.

I hope your supposition here is right for the same reasons. It's a great juxtaposition for both of them while retaining The Doctor's ordinariness and adds another layer to The Master's corrupted nature.

I'm also not keen on Bel and Vinder's baby being either of The Doctor or The Master, but I suppose it's inevitable. I guess just showing how universe is post-Flux through their eyes isn't enough.

I've actually been wondering if some of the scenes are of the previous universe to our own--particularly those with Bel and Vinder (outside his experience with our group). That universe is clearly disintegrating at a fundamental level. I'm wondering if they ship their child from the previous universe to ours to save it. There the proto-Time Lords find it and it becomes TC.

Yeah, I've wondered if that might be the case but even if that's true, there is still some wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff going on.

 

[Mr Awe]

Also of note is that the Angel kept referring to it as "Division" rather than "the Division"... just a manner of speech to make the Angel seem alien or is the distinction more meaningful?

@matthunter Division of the universes? From the previous to our current universe? Maybe Division refers to/oversaw that division?

One thing I will give credit for, is that so far the dates in the show have matched with the dates of transmission. Which is very unusual.

While watching the episode, I kept thinking November 21st seemed relevant somehow. Then I realized, because that's the current date not because of a story point!

 

[Orac Zen]

OK, anyone else wondering if the Rogue Angel will turn out to be the one the Doctor has become, crossing back on its own timestream? It has the Doctor's missing memories because the Angel-Doctor tricks the Division and accesses their records, then she pops back to the past to set all this up. "Rogue Angel" then leaves Claire and turns back into Jodie (possibly the TARDIS reboot has something to do with this?)

This is a good theory and it wouldn't be a surprise if it turns out to be what happens. However...

That's a pretty good theory and I expect you're right, but I actually hope it's not true. I prefer the idea of an actual Weeping Angel rebelling for its own reasons than The Doctor operating in the appearance of one. We haven't seen Weeping Angels act with any sense of individuality before so it's fascinating to see that level of characterization now and I would hate to see that rolled back.

This is probably an even better idea. It would interesting to see if the angels are capable of independence and if so, how it happened.

While watching the episode, I kept thinking November 21st seemed relevant somehow. Then I realized, because that's the current date not because of a story point!

Well, it was actually the 22nd here, but the point remains.

 

[jaime]

Maybe the Chibnall plan is just to reconcile Terminus with Slipback. Will we see the Garm in the series finale?

 

[Redfern]

While watching the episode, I kept thinking November 21st seemed relevant somehow.

It was...well, at least for me as I turned 59.

 

[matthunter]

@matthunter Division of the universes? From the previous to our current universe? Maybe Division refers to/oversaw that division?

I like this. Weeping Angels have supposedly existed since the dawn of Time so if the Division use them as agents they might have started early. They might even have set up the Time Lords... perhaps the Timeless Child came from the previous universe?

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

If they manage to tie everything up in a satisfying manner with or without the specials (but really, it should be *without* when you advertised the series as "one big film" or sth like that), I'll be extremely surprised.

Even though I enjoyed this episode very much, the overarching story just seems unnecessarily convoluted.

 

[Commander Troi]

WOW that was good! The Angels scared me last week and this was even worse (better).

The big question is where (or rather when) are the Division? Gallifrey has been destroyed, the Timelords wiped out, and unless they rebadged as the Celestial Intervention Agency there's an argument that the Division has surely been mothballed since time of the First Doctor? So where is 13 being taken? To her present and a Division enclave off-Gallifrey, or to Gallifrey's past when the Division was still a thing? It's problematic either way really.

A very good question. They're starting to make it sound like the Division have been the real Time Lords all along, existing somewhere outside of time/space, with what was on Gallifrey a mere front/proxy. If Rassilon was/is part of that, then Twelve may have made the biggest mistake of his lives letting him go.

Good points, but I'm starting to think The Division is neither Time Lords, proto-Time Lords, nor Gallifreyan. The Rogue Angel said they take/use all species and from all times. Maybe they're run by Someone Else. Maybe Communism is just a Red Herring.

I think it has something to do with the Old Lady from last episode who told The Doctor that The Flux wasn't natural.

maybe the village being isolated out of time and space meant there was no past further than 1901 to send them to.

I think it's that one. Previous to 1901 was... was that a crashed Angel ship?

I'm happy with myself that I guessed the older woman trying to warn people in 1967 was Peggy, having lived there since 1901, when we first saw 10-year-old her there.

It was...well, at least for me as I turned 59.

Happy Birthday!

 

[DigificWriter]

If they manage to tie everything up in a satisfying manner with or without the specials (but really, it should be *without* when you advertised the series as "one big film" or sth like that), I'll be extremely surprised.

The first two 'specials' were written and filmed to be part of Series 13, so I'd be very surprised if the story of the Flux gets resolved in just 6 episodes.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

The Doctor wasn't turned into an Angel; they just covered her in stone - using their own physical template - in preparation for transporting her to the Division.

What‘s wrong with good old carbonite?

 

[Australis]

This week, the Angels were relentless, which was great. The acting was at a minimum solid. But there is still way too much, "I'll tell you later." And I have concerns about where the end of the series will leave the Doctor.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

It was...well, at least for me as I turned 59.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don't fault Doctor Who for its wonky elements, so long as they're fun, and there are wonky elements aplenty. (What's sci-fi/fantasy without fun? It's not fun.) The idea that whatever can hold the image of an Angel can become an Angel is certainly wonky.

Ever since that idea was introduced (when was it, "The Time of Angels"?), I was immediately of the opinion, even before Amy had something in her eye and began to have trouble moving, that anybody who has ever seen a Weeping Angel could be in serious trouble. If magnetic tape holding a video recording of an Angel or a piece of paper holding a sketch of one is a problem, then surely a brain with memories of what they look like is at least equally a problem. (I expect that this idea has gotten plenty of discussion.)

And if that's so, that would go for the Doctor herself, and it always would have. Whether this has anything to do with what happened to the Doctor or not, I've always considered the Doctor vulnerable to being turned into a Weeping Angel.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

I don’t quite remember.
What set Amy apart from everyone else that she started turning into an Angel?
Did it have something to do with the recording she kept watching?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don’t quite remember.
What set Amy apart from everyone else that she started turning into an Angel?
Did it have something to do with the recording she kept watching?

If I understood it right, it happened because she had been watching the video. She noticed that the angel had moved in the video, and she started paying closer attention. I think that attention she was paying opened her mind and made her vulnerable. Or something like that.

 

[David cgc]

It was because when Amy was staring at the video-Angel, she made eye contact with it. “The eyes are the windows to the soul, but they are also the doors.” So it’s not normally a problem, because the Angels are usually covering their faces until they attack, unless they’re alone, to ensure they don’t see each other and end up frozen like the first group did at the end of “Blink.”

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It was because when Amy was staring at the video-Angel, she made eye contact with it. “The eyes are the windows to the soul, but they are also the doors.” So it’s not normally a problem, because the Angels are usually covering their faces until they attack, unless they’re alone, to ensure they don’t see each other and end up frozen like the first group did at the end of “Blink.”

Thanks.