S13E04 "Village of the Angels" BBC1 6.20-7.15pm 21st November

[DigificWriter]

I haven't really shared my thoughts on the actual episode yet, but I really liked it and think it is by far the best - by several orders of magnitude - of the two Weeping Angel stories I've seen (I'm in a distinct minority in that I don't find Blink to be the masterpiece that most other Whovians do).

It also solidified my conviction that the scene in Once, Upon Time of Bel sitting by a campfire and Vinder talking to her via holo was in the past while the rest of the scenes with her were in the post-Flux present because, in this episode, we saw the limitations of the holo-tech that Vinder was using to talk to her in the campfire scene when she used it to try and tell Vinder where she was headed.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

This is a good theory and it wouldn't be a surprise if it turns out to be what happens. However...

This is probably an even better idea. It would interesting to see if the angels are capable of independence and if so, how it happened.

The two ideas are not completely mutually exclusive, if we alter the first one slightly, and have the Doctor and this Angel working together.

 

[marillion]

Some quick thoughts...

I'm in agreement that this season has, by in large, been the most enjoyable of the JW era. I do love many bits and pieces of the other seasons, but this has been hitting all the right notes for me.

That being said, I'm really REALLY over the whole "history of the Doctor" thing. While it was fun back in the Matt Smith era with the whole "What is the Doctor's real name," that was just some silliness and lots of great moments with River.

I may be in the minority here, but I was really fine with the Doctor just being your everyday average Time Lord who decided to shrug off the stodgy old ways and go on adventures. Because frankly, all of the confusing retconning of back stories and missing memories and all that make my head spin. And I also think that may be part of why they are losing audience. Dr. Who was never more popular as it was during the Matt Smith era, globally. It was a fun romp each week with story arcs, yes, but not mind-numbingly confusing ones. At least not for me.

Obviously just my own opinion here. I could be wrong, and perhaps I am...

 

[Saul]

Good episode. The Angels are in general just great monsters and I like the rules that apply to their abilities. It's not the best angel episode since Blink, those would be 'The time of the angels' and 'Flesh & Stone'.
I'm glad Bel was in this episode less because I really dislike the character and I'm sorry to say that it's mostly down to the actress playing her. Her acting is not over the top but it is very acty, acty. The delivery or lines and facial expressions come off as someone playing an actor rather than a character.

For next weeks poll how about we make 5 - Terrible and 6 - Fantastic and the other ratings shall be done by bingo drum.

I may be in the minority here, but I was really fine with the Doctor just being your everyday average Time Lord who decided to shrug off the stodgy old ways and go on adventures.

I don't disagree but there has been hints throughout the later series of the original run that there was more to the Doctor. Since the seeds have been set I'm OK with them harvesting them finally if it's done for the last time.

The same thing happened with River Song. First she was a love of the Doctor but then she had to become this big mystery thing.

That being said, I'm really REALLY over the whole "history of the Doctor" thing. While it was fun back in the Matt Smith era

While I enjoyed those episodes a lot there was absolutely no pay off to them .

 

[jaime]

Some quick thoughts...

I'm in agreement that this season has, by in large, been the most enjoyable of the JW era. I do love many bits and pieces of the other seasons, but this has been hitting all the right notes for me.

That being said, I'm really REALLY over the whole "history of the Doctor" thing. While it was fun back in the Matt Smith era with the whole "What is the Doctor's real name," that was just some silliness and lots of great moments with River.

I may be in the minority here, but I was really fine with the Doctor just being your everyday average Time Lord who decided to shrug off the stodgy old ways and go on adventures. Because frankly, all of the confusing retconning of back stories and missing memories and all that make my head spin. And I also think that may be part of why they are losing audience. Dr. Who was never more popular as it was during the Matt Smith era, globally. It was a fun romp each week with story arcs, yes, but not mind-numbingly confusing ones. At least not for me.

Obviously just my own opinion here. I could be wrong, and perhaps I am...

Basically sums it up. Except I am a little more annoyed by it, simply because it seems to diminish what was unique about the character, little by little as well.

 

[CuriousCaitian]

Fully agree with the consensus here: that was a fantastic episode, tense and compusive from start to finish, with the Angels back at their fearsome best, aided by some brilliant one-shot now-I'm-ten-feet-away, now-I'm-right-in-your-face moments; I'm a real sucker for old school, in camera jump scare techniques, way more effective than CG trickery for me. I'd also agree with the niggles people have highlighted. My respect for Kevin McNally has grown even more, now; a top-tier character actor, no question. And yes, I too wonder why we couldn't have gotten this Chibnall right from the start.

Since the Doctor will presumably be coming face-to-face with The Division next episode - unless she's put on ice for the entirety of it, which does seem pretty unlikely - we should finally start to get some concrete answers. If we dont, I really start to worry, as that would leave way too much for the Flux finale to do to tie up the series and lead into the specials. Please don't let all this good work go to waste, Chibnall.

 

[Mr Awe]

I may be in the minority here, but I was really fine with the Doctor just being your everyday average Time Lord who decided to shrug off the stodgy old ways and go on adventures.

I don't know what the consensus is, but I completely agree with you! The Doctor is just a regular Time Lord who had to break with her society to make the universe a better place. And, in the early adventures in the classic series, we even saw the Doctor learning how to be the Doctor!

I have new hopes that the Timeless Child is actually the Master. I'd really like that development. It makes more sense too. The early experimentation and manipulation add a layer of corruption. And the ability to regenerate infinitely makes sense given the Master's ability to escape death! We'll see!

Since the Doctor will presumably be coming face-to-face with The Division next episode - unless she's put on ice for the entirety of it, which does seem pretty unlikely - we should finally start to get some concrete answers. If we dont, I really start to worry, as that would leave way too much for the Flux finale to do to tie up the series and lead into the specials. Please don't let all this good work go to waste, Chibnall.

So far, this series is well above Chibnall's previous two. My guess is that the Division needs the Doctor's help. Things have gotten out of balance. Some sort of conflict carrying over from the previous universe.

I'm hoping that Chibnall doesn't revert to his story by exposition dump ways. With only two episodes left, he's going to have to fit a lot in.

 

[CuriousCaitian]

So far, this series is well above Chibnall's previous two. My guess is that the Division needs the Doctor's help. Things have gotten out of balance. Some sort of conflict carrying over from the previous universe.

Agreed, and that certainly tracks; obviously, the Flux would be the outcome or manifestation of said conflict. Another possibility ties into the Mysterious Woman from last ep, with the Doctor either responsible, or at least believe to be responsible, for the Flux, and thus must be punished. Either way, The Division clearly aren't the types to ask for your presence; they'll take you whether you're ready or not.

I'm hoping that Chibnall doesn't revert to his story by exposition dump ways. With only two episodes left, he's going to have to fit a lot in.

If all this ends with twenty minutes of Swarm/the Master/the Head of The Division expositing at an immobilised Doctor I'll probably scream. Maybe that's the BBC anniversary special, and she regenerates out of sheer boredom or frustration or both. "That's it, I'm out. The next poor sucker can suffer this."

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I may be in the minority here, but I was really fine with the Doctor just being your everyday average Time Lord who decided to shrug off the stodgy old ways and go on adventures. Because frankly, all of the confusing retconning of back stories and missing memories and all that make my head spin. And I also think that may be part of why they are losing audience. Dr. Who was never more popular as it was during the Matt Smith era, globally. It was a fun romp each week with story arcs, yes, but not mind-numbingly confusing ones. At least not for me.

Obviously just my own opinion here. I could be wrong, and perhaps I am...

I agree with you as well. I far prefer The Doctor as just a Time Lord who decides to be better than what's expected of them. The character has been on a slippery slope since the show returned, with Davies and how the Time War ended by The Doctor's hand, but Moffat certainly was the most guilty of overdoing The Doctor's standing in the universe and the whole Timeless Child business hasn't helped any (I do also hope for The Master reveal but as is, it's still The Doctor).

The difference for me than from some fans (both here and beyond) is that I don't take these changes so damn personally and I try to make the best of them, even if I'm not a fan of them. I certainly want The Doctor to return to a simple wanderer of the cosmos but I'm willing to go with the ride as it is now because there is plenty of good coming out of it.

 

[jaime]

I agree with you as well. I far prefer The Doctor as just a Time Lord who decides to be better than what's expected of them. The character has been on a slippery slope since the show returned, with Davies and how the Time War ended by The Doctor's hand, but Moffat certainly was the most guilty of overdoing The Doctor's standing in the universe and the whole Timeless Child business hasn't helped any (I do also hope for The Master reveal but as is, it's still The Doctor).

The difference for me than from some fans (both here and beyond) is that I don't take these changes so damn personally and I try to make the best of them, even if I'm not a fan of them. I certainly want The Doctor to return to a simple wanderer of the cosmos but I'm willing to go with the ride as it is now because there is plenty of good coming out of it.

I think the ‘standing in the universe’ was neatly explained and dealt with in the Moffat Era (Eleven even says ‘I got too big’) and then sort of inverted with Twelve. (She cares so I don’t have to, and then by the end, where I stand is where I fall) It was very much shown as something the Doctor had become by being the Doctor, sometime after just being Theta Sigma going on the run in his Rackety Old Tardis, and accidentally becoming The Time Lord Victorious.
Any time Thirteen gives the pale ‘Earth is protected’ speech, it doesn’t even turn out to be to a rabbit, but usually some alien she’s just accidentally racially profiled instead. (She’s done it in this episode as well. Not the first time this year.)

 

[Orac Zen]

I may be in the minority here, but I was really fine with the Doctor just being your everyday average Time Lord who decided to shrug off the stodgy old ways and go on adventures.

I agree with you as well. I far prefer The Doctor as just a Time Lord who decides to be better than what's expected of them.

What they said.

I still don't really know what I think of the whole "Timeless Child" thing but I do know I've never cared for the ongoing revision / retconning of the Doctor that's featured in "new" Who. I have no problem with story arcs that span a season or more but I don't want it to be at the expense of what the show was always about - the Doctor and companion(s) travelling anywhere in time and space, righting wrongs and warding off evil. All the backstory and revisionism and whatever has had its interesting bits but too much of it has involved changing the Doctor into something the character isn't / wasn't / shouldn't be (IMO, anyway). The Doctor as a Gallifrey-destroying arsehole. The Doctor as a puerile adolescent pining over a companion (who was herself turned into a simpering idiot). Those things made the show unwatchable for me. The Smith era was (mostly) a joy and most of the way through revisiting the Capaldi era, it's much better than I remembered, but the Moffat tenure was also the era during which the show disappeared up its own mythos and it became increasingly difficult to keep track of what was going on / had gone on. The Whittaker era - a handful of episodes aside - has suffered from poor writing. Now all this Timeless Child / Division stuff which may or may not pay off. No doubt it works for a lot of people but I wouldn't mind going back to the "travelling time and space" stuff without all the character revision, the retconning and the baggage. Given Davies is returning, I won't hold my breath.

 

[Starkers]

I'm glad Bel was in this episode less because I really dislike the character and I'm sorry to say that it's mostly down to the actress playing her. Her acting is not over the top but it is very acty, acty. The delivery or lines and facial expressions come off as someone playing an actor rather than a character.

In her defence she's mostly been acting on her own, or to her tamagotchi thing which might have impacted her performance.

 

[Saul]

I understand. I don't want to come down too hard on her so I'll leave it at that. I just hope she doesn't end up being the mother of the Doctor....

 

[Commander Troi]

To be fair, the Mysterious Backstory was started with McCoy IIRC.

 

[dupersuper]

To be fair, the Mysterious Backstory was started with McCoy IIRC.

"I am far more than just another Time Lord."

 

[Orac Zen]

To be fair, the Mysterious Backstory was started with McCoy IIRC.

I disliked McCoy's Doctor so much I stopped watching the show, so I'll take your word for it.

I'm still very much over the retconning and revisionism that's run through so much of new Who. Each to their own but it's never appealed to me in the slightest.

 

[Starkers]

Worth remembering that the mysterious backstory for the Doctor started in er, checks notes, 1963...

These are the characters we know and sympathise with, the ordinary people to whom extraordinary things happen. The fourth basic character remains always something of a mystery, and is seen by us rather through the eyes of the other three....

DR. WHO A frail old man lost in space and time. They give him this name because they don't know who he is. He seems not to remember where he has come from; he is suspicious and capable of sudden malignance; he seems to have some undefined enemy; he is searching for something as well as fleeing from something. He has a "machine" which enables them to travel together through time, through space, and through matter.

It's interesting to note how well the above could feed into the Timless Child.

Similarly the below (I love the idea that writers should undercut their own explanations so the next writer along can have a go)

He remains a mystery. From time to time the other three discover things about him, which turn out to be false or inconclusive. (i.e. any writer inventing an interesting explanation must undercut it within his own serial-time, so that others can have a go at the mystery). They think he may be a criminal fleeing from his own time; he evidently fears pursuit through time. Sometimes they doubt his loss of memory, particularly as he does have flashes of memory. But also, he is searching for something which he desires heart-and-soul, but which he can't define. If, for instance, they were to go back to King Arthur's time, Dr. Who would be immensely moved by the idea of the quest for the Grail. This is, as regards him, a Quest Story, a Mystery Story, and a Mysterious Stranger Story, overall.

While his mystery may never be solved, or may perhaps be revealed slowly over a very long run of stories, writers will probably like to know an answer.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

You'd think Susan would help her grandfather remember his past when and as required.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

You'd think Susan would help her grandfather remember his past when and as required.

Unless Susan was Division.
What is more believable, that she fell in love in a dystopian future and gave up her true family for a guy she met yesterday? Or that she was extracted?

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Yeah, there was no sign of her supposed husband in "The Five Doctors".