• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 4x01 - "Kobayashi Maru"

Rate the episode...


  • Total voters
    174
They're all evil Spoonheads. :)

Personally, I always liked the idea that Cardassia would one day reform itself, establish a democracy, shake off its fascist history, and join the Federation. I like to imagine that the Cardassians' belief in the need for collective action and collective solidarity, channeled away from fascism and towards democracy, would be something that the Federation would benefit from.

Curious if Earth is back in. Would be interesting if they're not. They go off and make their own Federation. With blackjack. And hookers.

Well, we know that Trill rejoined at the end of S3 and that Ni'Var is taking to the Feds again. Nothing has yet established United Earth as having rejoined though. Personally I would like to see the reunion of the Federation with its founding member worlds as its own arc.

I liked it. Burnham is so much better when she isn’t overacting and crying

SMG has not once over-acted in this entire show. Hell, I'm old enough to remember when everyone was bitching that she was too wooden when the show began! Her character's arc is one of someone who goes from repression to healing from trauma to leadership. Crying is part of that -- and there is nothing wrong with crying. I agree that the writers had her cry exactly one too many times almost three years ago in Season Two. This was only a mistake insofar as featuring too many scenes of her crying makes the others feel less dramatically powerful; at no point was the character's crying an inappropriate response or an indication of over-acting or over-emotionalism. I can't even remember any scenes of her crying in S3.

I didn’t like the Saru B story line. So boring. I know they want to keep him relevant but it felt out of place in this episode. Hopefully they have a vision to connect him to the main story.

I liked his scenes on Kaminar -- I like getting a sense of what's going on in the domestic affairs of other planets, and I really liked seeing that the revolution Saru set off in S2 has led to the Kelpians and the Ba'ul living in peace and equality.

I think they're probably going to set up Saru as the captain of the new sporedrive ship President Rillak was talking about.

Finally, the president is an intriguing character and very well acted. My guess is she’s just another obstacle for Burnham to run over but she had some valid points on Burnhams flaws which opens the door for character development for her.

If she has some valid points, maybe that means she's not an obstacle? Vance turned out not to be an obstacle last season, after all.

He also keeps accidentally outing the misogynoir that actually motivates his "critiques":



Wow, what kind of Kirk would do something like that? It's almost like that uppity chick thinks she has some kind of right to be a protagonist who does daring, heroic things.

And then there's this:



Because the problem is that the story has allowed her to be a protagonist who has accomplished extraordinary things, is the point here. It's "insidious" that she's a protagonist at all. She's unreasonably "entitled" no matter what she does or how much it matters.



And just in case the point wasn't clear enough, White Dudes are not being paid sufficient deference by the writing.

If certain podcasts are distancing themselves from him, I expect it's likely because he keeps saying the quiet part out loud.

That is an excellent point I didn't think about. I thought his getting upset at the "pudgy white dude" dying was gross and weirdly self-pitying, but I didn't synthesis his comments the way you did. Thank you for pointing that out.

Very disappointing, especially considering that it's in contradiction to his stated politics -- his twitter is full of condemnations of overt institutional racism, IIRC. But there again, he's hardly be the first white liberal to be much more anti-racist in theory than in practice.

It's also consistent with the horrific misogyny of saying that a female writer ought to be forced to walk naked through the streets with people screaming and throwing things at her just because he didn't like their script for an episode of TV, though.

Interesting side-note: RMB accused "Unification III" of being anti-semitic because he thought it was some coded attack on the right of the State of Israel to exist -- like the Romulans coming back to Vulcan/Ni'Var was the equivalent of Palestinians getting the right to return or something. But that parallel really doesn't line up with the real-world history of Israel and Palestine, so I don't see where he got that from. Also, "Unification III" was a follow-up to TNG's "Unification I & II," whose writer Michael Piller had explicitly compared Vulcan/Romulan reunification to the reunification of West and East Germany after the end of the Cold War.

I felt like they came across as contrasting but equally-valid takes on events.

On the one hand, I fully understand why Michael, after everything she's been through, is not 100% interested in critiques of her performance from a politician whose interstellar credentials consist of cargo-running for her dad.

OTOH, the President isn't a stock Incompetent Functionary or a poor man's Kai Wynn. She comes across as a distinct character with equally valid points to make and who is genuinely competent within her own sphere.

Not an easy scene to do. I think they found a really interesting take on it.

I agree. And I also see flaws in both of them -- as I said, it was incredibly inappropriate of the President to question Michael's orders in front of the crew and undermine her authority in a crisis. But, her points about Michael's motivations were valid, and Michael's reaction to the President in their conversation was overly-defensive. I think they both have something to learn from each other.
 
That was not what the President was talking about though. I'm sure that the President is fully aware that Starfleet Captain will at times needs to make the ultimate sacrifice. But this wasn't one of those times. Rillak was specifically talking about Burnham being unwilling to delegate responsibilities to subordinates that may cost those subordinates their lives. This is actually a bad trait to have as a leader. Detmer or Rhys were probably perfectly capable of completing the mission and Burnham should have stepped back and allowed one of them to do so.

On the other hand, I don't necessarily think Michael was wrong to assess that as the person with the most E.V. time, her experience made her more qualified to take out that Worker Bee and operate in as quick a manner as possible. Sometimes a captain does need to know when not to delegate.

And, also, every single Star Trek TV show whose primary character is the commanding officer runs up against this same wall: The need of a television drama to get its primary character in jeopardy is always in tension with the more realistic scenario of major jeopardy being shouldered by junior officers and the C.O. staying on the bridge. I think about the only ST shows that get to avoid this problem are the ones where the main character isn't the C.O. -- LD, PIC, PRO, and S1-2 of DIS.

Burnham needs to be sending the kids on dangerous away missions, getting them to do risky endeavours and putting their lives on the line, because as starfleet officers, they need experience in those situations.

I agree, but I also think no one's giving her credit for having done precisely that by sending Tilly and Adira over there.
 
Burnett is like the occasional poster who will declare they’re done posting forever because their “genius” isn’t recognized enough. Then return to posting the very next day.

He’s a blowhard and pompous ass.

Re: Burnham and taking risk

She’s the star and captain. As the lead she should be in the middle of the action, like Kirk, driving the stories forward. TNG’s biggest mistake was taking Picard out of the action in the early seasons. Sure it might’ve been more “realistic” but it’s boring from a dramatic TV standpoint.
 
TNG didn't have lots of action to take him out of. TNG was very much about problem solving with the mind and using talking to get out of problems. Which is a good thing because most of the fist fights were just terrible on the show.

I talked about putting him in jeopardy, not about action per se. Though the purported intellectualism of TNG has also been overstated IMO.
 
What was up with the flamethrowers on the bridge? Who installed those anyway?
When I watched the episode I noticed the overdone flamethrower effects as well. I immediately thought "Rammstein would feel comfortable giving a concert on the Discovery Bridge now". :lol::lol: It was a bit ridiculous fire bursting out of the same throwers every few seconds and pulled me out of the scene.
Otherwise I mostly enjoyed the opening. The new LED-Wall technology worked great when Saru was in the counsel on his planet, but looked less convincing to me on the Starbase. The cuts to the crew looking down, were kind of awkward and towards the end of the sequence you good see a weird video effect going on for a few seconds at the upper edge of the video wall. It will probably get better with the next episodes. Going by the feature in "The Ready Room" they finished the wall just in time for production.
 
Someone described the flamethrower effects to a ride at Disneyland. Did look rather staged.
There are lots of effects and artistic choices on the show that don't do it for me.
That headspin worker bee crash scene was terrible looking. Reminded me of a 90s Madonna video the way it was framed.
Books ship needlessly doing it's Optimus Prime thing for no reason at the start too and the general Transformers sound effects on Discovery
 
Wow, what kind of Kirk would do something like that? It's almost like that uppity chick thinks she has some kind of right to be a protagonist who does daring, heroic things.

And then there's this:



Because the problem is that the story has allowed her to be a protagonist who has accomplished extraordinary things, is the point here. It's "insidious" that she's a protagonist at all. She's unreasonably "entitled" no matter what she does or how much it matters.



And just in case the point wasn't clear enough, White Dudes are not being paid sufficient deference by the writing.

If certain podcasts are distancing themselves from him, I expect it's likely because he keeps saying the quiet part out loud.[/QUOTE]
 
I know the show still isn't or likely will ever be one the greatest Trek's or great tv shows on tv today but I don't see how you can't notice that at least in this single episode their has been some slight improvement and maybe this will actually turn out to be the shows first good year.
 
Where’s the fun in that?

It is not "fun" when someone who is supposed to be a professional and a leader in the fandom calls for a woman to be sexually assaulted because he doesn't like her script for a TV show.

Edited to add:

Also, I would respond to this tweet you made:

RMBurnett on Twitter said:
Love it! Funny thing is…they are criticizing me personally, and aren’t addressing the points I’m trying to make.

No, we addressed the points you made. They were nonsense and racist.

DISCOVERY has an ongoing pattern of making white male Starfleet officers, who should be worthy of respect, and making them buffoons. A status punishable by death.

This is pure nonsense. Right off the bat, Stamets and Pike are depicted as admirable, respectable, heroic characters, and they're both white men. Kovich is played as respectable and not at all a buffoon. There are prominent alien characters coded as white (and played by white men), like Saru, Spock, Sarek, and Gray Tal, who are all portrayed as varying degrees of heroic and respectable.

There were also less admirable white guy characters in Mirror Lorca and Leland/Control. They were antagonists, but not buffoons and still quite worthy of respect as characters.

Even the character you were complaining about, Commander Nalas, is more complex than to say he's a "buffoon." He's a guy who's clearly under more stress than he was able to handle, but the episode is also very clear in its depiction of him as being self-sacrificing to protect his crew -- a great level of heroism. It's also notable that while you say he's supposed to be a white guy, he was played by an actor with a Latino name and had a dark skin tone; I don't think he was coded as white the way you do.

Literally the only white guy buffoon character I can think of on DIS... is Harry Mudd!

I strongly urge you to give a lot of consideration to your implicit biases, and (as a fellow white guy) I urge you to stop viewing TV shows that are inclusive and diverse as a threat to you as a white guy. That's the gateway to the Trumpism you so revile.
 
Last edited:
I know the show still isn't or likely will ever be one the greatest Trek's or great tv shows on tv today but I don't see how you can't notice that at least in this single episode their has been some slight improvement and maybe this will actually turn out to be the shows first good year.
It was a good episode overall. Could have done without the trips to Naboo and Pandora but the main plot was good.
I liked the President and as always Vance was amazing with his few parts and same goes for the amazing helm team. Mature Tilly is great and finally in the kind of place she should be before they botched her arc. It makes no sense but I like chief engineer Stamets and his scene was very Geordie shouting coolant leak or rerouting power into the camera
 
Last edited:
It’s Friday. That means I can sign in to Netflix and watch the new Discovery
south-park-its-gone.gif
 
No she :censored:ing didn't! And even if the record reflected that inaccuracy she also ended the war.
World War I would have happened eventually anyway but that doesn't mean it didn't start because of Gavrilo Princip's actions. Burnham shot first we only assume the Klingons would have done the same
I’d forgotten about this already. I like Book, but his character is all over the place. Sometimes he’s a deep-feeling space Druid and sometimes he’s a smirky generic action hero in the Han Solo mold.
Nothing got to do with him being Jedi master Han Solo but I am starting to think he isn't a great character but just gets away with a lot because the actor is very handsome and cute
They were being so flippant and rude to those people.
It was good old arrogant Starfleet everyone loves our help BS and the butterflies were right to tell em to F off
They go off and make their own Federation. With blackjack. And hookers.
Earth by Quark
her points about Michael's motivations were valid, and Michael's reaction to the President in their conversation was overly-defensive. I think they both have something to learn from each other.
I really would like if where they were going was to end with a mutual respect and having both grown. But the usual from Discovery would be for events to completely prove Burnham right and the president to make a groveling apology or turn out to be eeeeeevil. Would be nice though if the president was right and Burnham learns a hard lesson by getting people killed.
 
What makes it more Kelvin when there is definitely an aesthetic feel completely different to the Kelvin films?
How about the complete disregard for their own safety and instead making wise cracks in the face of death as if they would undoubtedly survive much like they did in the Kelvin movies.
 
Why wouldn't he be chief engineer? The ship was built specifically for his spore drive to his specs.
Well I know she is not there for IRL reasons but the cast has an engineer and I'm sure the ship has plenty of them.
Stamets obviously understands propulsion so I get him having an engineering role so maybe I was a bit harsh with "makes no sense" but rerouting power and working on shields and things is certainly not his job as we understand it in the show so far.
I am one of those people who is annoyed with Discoverys lack of clarification on roles. Just have a scene telling us Stamets and Culber and whoever else are chief this or that and same for the recurring bridge crew and just put it to bed
 
I have to comment on this one. Terrible first season opener.

Negatives:

1) The conflict between Michael and the President was cringe worthy. How can a leader be that arrogant? Conversely, how can Michael be that combative? I've been around high ranking officers when other high ranking civilians were there and there is ALWAYS respect. But then again these high ranking civilians would not likely be on a mission like this one, regardless if they wanted to or not. Can't we have leaders depicted as competent and caring instead of political and arrogant? Haven't we had enough of that in real life? Is she related to Gul Dukat?
2) I have been supportive of the writer's direction with Michael, but it is actually bordering ridiculous now how she does everything - isn't there anyone else who is qualified to remove the debris from the ship? Give some of the secondary characters a little development here, let them have a little spotlight. Michael is awesome, let others around her breathe a little.
3) I don't feel like this is set 1000 years past the 23rd Century. Seems to me like the tech is 24th century. Dude dies and Culber can't resuscitate? Nonsense. Doors still get jammed? Really? Transporter Heisenberg compensators out? Plot, I suppose.
4) Kwejian. I'm not sure if this is a negative or positive. It really surprised me about the destruction, and I feel incredibly bad for Book who I feel is one of the stronger characters. Destroying his home world cut deep. If that is what the writers were gunning for then bravo, but it is still depressing.

Positives

1) How Culber and Stamets are concerned for Adira. Like a parent with their children. Awesome.
2) Kewjian. It really made me feel something for Book. If you want the big bad to seem big and bad, well mission accomplished. It hit home.
3) Federation is coming back and the academy is coming back. Hope is returning.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top