Most notably? Nope.
It was the warmongering Klingons who referred to the Connie refit as a Federation battle cruiser. Given what they were up to, that propaganda spin says more about them than the Federation. Battle cruiser, my ass.
Is Starfleet a military organization?
- Thread starter Commander Troi
- Start date
It was the warmongering Klingons who referred to the Connie refit as a Federation battle cruiser. Given what they were up to, that propaganda spin says more about them than the Federation. Battle cruiser, my ass.
I mostly disagree.
If it was said during a public statement, such as by Amb. Kamarang during his historinics in TVH, then I'd agree. Changing "Starship Enterprise" for "Battle Cruiser Enterprise" in Judgement was essentially propanga or at least "playing to the crowd".
But the line in SFS was a report delivered between two Klingons, so IMO what they're saying is either: The Connie is a battle cruiser, or that it's equivalent to a Klingon battle cruiser in firepower (So the KBoP would be seriously outgunned).
The first is... debatable, but on-screen evidence favours the second.
YMMV.
If it was said during a public statement, such as by Amb. Kamarang during his historinics in TVH, then I'd agree. Changing "Starship Enterprise" for "Battle Cruiser Enterprise" in Judgement was essentially propanga or at least "playing to the crowd".
But the line in SFS was a report delivered between two Klingons, so IMO what they're saying is either: The Connie is a battle cruiser, or that it's equivalent to a Klingon battle cruiser in firepower (So the KBoP would be seriously outgunned).
The first is... debatable, but on-screen evidence favours the second.
YMMV.
Admiral Cornwell did say that the Enterprise was intentionally sidelined during the war. So perhaps this was true of all Constitution-class ships in the fleet?
Starfleet certainly had enough firepower to keep up the slack, but if worst came to worst, the Connies would be needed to rebuild the fleet, and the Federation itself, if things got that bad.
Perhaps Kruge and Torg had heard (and created) such propaganda - that all Federation ships are battle cruisers - for so long, that they began to believe it themselves, even between the two of them.
And these are Klingons we're talking about. Presumably all Klingon ships are battleships, so naturally they'd assume this of any other spacefaring race they came across, particularly a long-standing enemy like the Federation.
Not at all. That's not how government propaganda works. Its primary function isn't to influence non citizens, though it certainly has its uses there. No, its primary function is to influence the actions of its own citizens.
One thing you said is correct, though. It was equivalent to the K't'inga. The Klingons were projecting that their enemy would apply their ships in a way that they themselves might, and that justified their response in their own minds (that's case in point of how propaganda can be applied by a government to influence its own people). Where the Connie refit differed from K't'inga was that it was equipped to carry out more roles, something that the Klingons could not wrap their heads around. Nevertheless it made the designation "battle cruiser" a lie. To be an actual battle cruiser, the Connie refit would have had to have been stripped of its comforts, its science labs, much of its cargo holds, and probably most of its crew.
So, in military terms it's a battlecruiser or heavy cruiser. That was my point.
Given that the older d7 which followed the same hull design had a Science Officer in a similar position to the Connie, I'm not entirely convinced that Klingon vessels are lacking in a mission fittings (science labs, cargo holds) or crew compared to equivalent Starfleet designs. The only possible, indeed probable, difference is the quality of crew berthing which is irrelevant to any military or combat designation.
I didn't say that the K't'inga carried a lesser crew, or lacked cargo carrying and scientific capability altogether.
I said that for the Connie refit to be considered a battle cruiser, it would have to shed much of its crew, and its labs, and much of its cargo holds. It carries a lot of specialists that would play no role in manning a battle cruiser. The Connie and Connie refit were designed for extended deep space first contact and exploration missions on their own, something outside the mission parameters of a battle cruiser. A battle cruiser is a warship designed to fight and defeat any lighter warship in ship-to-ship engagements, by chasing down and outgunning. Anything extra, like deck upon deck contributing no role to the mission, would negatively impact that capability, especially when it comes to warp nine flanking.
According to the DS9 tech manual, a K't'inga can serve as a troop carrier. You could pack troops into a Connie refit as well, replacing all of the mission specialists. But this isn't the main mission of a battle cruiser.
Actually, the Connie can accommodate around 400-600 (depending on staffing) extra bodies at very short notice so is as capable of acting as a "troop carrier" as the D7 would be, it's just that Starfleet chooses not to use that particular function.
There is no evidence that the D7 is not capable of carrying out all the same missions as a Connie.
As far as cargo holds go... some reconfiguration of the contents might be required, but military missions need supplies just like any other. Look at the KBoP, based on the typical size figure at least 30% of it's total volume is cargo hold.
There is no evidence that the D7 is not capable of carrying out all the same missions as a Connie.
As far as cargo holds go... some reconfiguration of the contents might be required, but military missions need supplies just like any other. Look at the KBoP, based on the typical size figure at least 30% of it's total volume is cargo hold.
Starfleet is a "Hybrid Organization" IMO.
½ of it is Exploratory / Scientific / Engineering / Support / Diplomatic Core
½ of it is Defensive / Military / Always Combat Ready Preparedness
It follows the Yin & Yang philosophy of balance, but can pivot as needed based on the situation.
Adaptibility, Fluidity, Preparedness is what is necessary.
That's why StarFleet isn't designed around having the "Optimal WarShip" but a Hybrid WarShip / Explorer / Scientific / Engineering / Diplomatic functionalities all built into one vessel.
StarFleet generally doesn't "Start the Fight, but it sure as hell will end it".
StarFleet and the UFP prefers negotiation, diplomacy, over war. But if it has to fight, it will be more than ready to do so.
Yeah, it's a contrasting view of things, but it has served the UFP well IMO by being a Hybrid System.
It just needs to be more balanced and not have 1x side of the Doves vs Hawks debate take over and both sides need to get equal support.
Otherwise we end up with tragedies like Wolf 359 which shows how un-prepared the UFP was when the Doves in the Admiralty took over.
Look at how bad the losses were when the Dominion were kicking the Alliance of the UFP / Klingons / Romulans butts.
If Benjamin Sisko didn't have Pull/Sway with the Wormhole Aliens / "The Prophets". The UFP literally would've lost because that invading fleet was MASSIVE. That fleet would've over-run the alliance.
Counting on Deus Ex-Machina to survive / win isn't practical.
Do I appreciate Benjamin Sisko using his "influence / stroke" with the (Wormhole Aliens / "The Prophets") to pull off a miracle? "HELL YEAH!". But counting on "Miracles" isn't practical in the long run.
Imagine being so unprepared that you loose countless lives on your side along with temporary loss of territory, civilians, and resources.
That's not acceptable IMO.
½ of it is Exploratory / Scientific / Engineering / Support / Diplomatic Core
½ of it is Defensive / Military / Always Combat Ready Preparedness
It follows the Yin & Yang philosophy of balance, but can pivot as needed based on the situation.
Adaptibility, Fluidity, Preparedness is what is necessary.
That's why StarFleet isn't designed around having the "Optimal WarShip" but a Hybrid WarShip / Explorer / Scientific / Engineering / Diplomatic functionalities all built into one vessel.
StarFleet generally doesn't "Start the Fight, but it sure as hell will end it".
StarFleet and the UFP prefers negotiation, diplomacy, over war. But if it has to fight, it will be more than ready to do so.
Yeah, it's a contrasting view of things, but it has served the UFP well IMO by being a Hybrid System.
It just needs to be more balanced and not have 1x side of the Doves vs Hawks debate take over and both sides need to get equal support.
Otherwise we end up with tragedies like Wolf 359 which shows how un-prepared the UFP was when the Doves in the Admiralty took over.
Look at how bad the losses were when the Dominion were kicking the Alliance of the UFP / Klingons / Romulans butts.
If Benjamin Sisko didn't have Pull/Sway with the Wormhole Aliens / "The Prophets". The UFP literally would've lost because that invading fleet was MASSIVE. That fleet would've over-run the alliance.
Counting on Deus Ex-Machina to survive / win isn't practical.
Do I appreciate Benjamin Sisko using his "influence / stroke" with the (Wormhole Aliens / "The Prophets") to pull off a miracle? "HELL YEAH!". But counting on "Miracles" isn't practical in the long run.
Imagine being so unprepared that you loose countless lives on your side along with temporary loss of territory, civilians, and resources.
That's not acceptable IMO.
Considering that war escalated to the point where the Klingons had a foothold within the Sol system, a Klingon invasion fleet made it to Earth orbit before being recalled and the Federation government had authorized Starfleet to commit genocide, one has to wonder how bad did it have to get before the twelve most advanced starships commanded by the most decorated captains and staffed by the most experienced crews were called into battle?
That just shows you how "Un-Prepared" StarFleet was at that time and how the Doves in the Admiralty / Flag Officers were running things and got so many StarFleet Officers killed and lost so much territory during that short UFP - Klingon war.
It also shows you how un-prepared each Star System was setup for defending themselves.
It would depend on how far away the Constitution-class ships were when the Klingons got close to Earth.
For all we know, they were all on their way home, but didn't get there in time.
For all we know, they were all on their way home, but didn't get there in time.
According to Captain Pike, they weren't even "Notified".
They were blissfully doing their 5 year mission of exploration while the war went on.
They literally sat out on the short Federation-Klingon war because they didn't get the call to come back.
Who knew that the UFP held their "Aces" so closely that they didn't use them at all.
Schrödinger.
This is pretty much the opinion I've come to after 535 messages.
Well, Picard had to learn "We surrender " from someone.
I don't know if that's more of a burn to Picard or Pike
More Starfleet in general.
To be fair, SF is NOT a military organisation... but it also isn't (or at least WOULDN'T BE) stupid... its just PORTRAYED as such by the writers who really don't know how to write about Trek and end up just creating drama for the sake of it.
You know... up the stakes and you get UFP at the brink of annihilation.
Essentially, if that were real life, even without being a military organisation, Starfleet wouldn't be that stupid to allow itself to succumb to Klingons like that.
They did make up a bit of a explanation behind the cloaking devices providing Klingons the advantage, but even back then, UFP space (or crucial sections of it) would be able to detect anomalies in the cloak... especially because the area would be heavily lined with sensors.
It never made sense that Starfleet when dealing with cloaks would detect anomalous movement and not really do anything about it... during war time (immediately after USS Disco disappearing), it would have probably been standard procedure to treat such anomalies as possible cloaks and have measures in place to decloak the vessel and determine if its an enemy or friendly (I mean, in war time, its likely to be an enemy).
So I find it very difficult to swallow Klingons would be able to successfully land such decisive blows... and that NO ONE in the entire UFP was able to counter the cloaks in Disco's absence (this is yet another fault with writers who apparently make the entire UFP incompetent without the 'heroes', and that certainly shouldn't be the case).
Heck, even after Disco returned and distributed the algorithm, it still wasn't enough apparently... that was mostly drama right then and there.
Also, sidelining the Enterprise and other Constitution class ships on the grounds that they didn't want to lose people like Pike... come on, the whole UFP and SF is supposed to contain people like him because they all grew up in a similar environment that taught them pretty much the same things and exposed them to the same principles and ideals - so there would be no shortage of such people.
If you want to keep certain ships out of the line of fire for rebuilding, that's fine, but sidelining some of the most powerful ships at the time doesn't make sense.
Drama trumps logic in live action apparently. I'd WISH the writers would stop with over the top drama and just write better/intelligent stories that work with the highly advanced (and continuosly advancing technology) as opposed to just throwing everything to the brink for the sake of drama.
Disco is now heading into Season 4, and yet again, the stakes are being 'raised' with the fate of the Federation at line.
Same thing was done over the past 3 seasons... they have a chance to make some intelligent stories with advanced technology that would be compelling, but yet again, 'drama' takes precedence.
No wonder the animated series are better... they don't over-dramatize.
You know... up the stakes and you get UFP at the brink of annihilation.
Essentially, if that were real life, even without being a military organisation, Starfleet wouldn't be that stupid to allow itself to succumb to Klingons like that.
They did make up a bit of a explanation behind the cloaking devices providing Klingons the advantage, but even back then, UFP space (or crucial sections of it) would be able to detect anomalies in the cloak... especially because the area would be heavily lined with sensors.
It never made sense that Starfleet when dealing with cloaks would detect anomalous movement and not really do anything about it... during war time (immediately after USS Disco disappearing), it would have probably been standard procedure to treat such anomalies as possible cloaks and have measures in place to decloak the vessel and determine if its an enemy or friendly (I mean, in war time, its likely to be an enemy).
So I find it very difficult to swallow Klingons would be able to successfully land such decisive blows... and that NO ONE in the entire UFP was able to counter the cloaks in Disco's absence (this is yet another fault with writers who apparently make the entire UFP incompetent without the 'heroes', and that certainly shouldn't be the case).
Heck, even after Disco returned and distributed the algorithm, it still wasn't enough apparently... that was mostly drama right then and there.
Also, sidelining the Enterprise and other Constitution class ships on the grounds that they didn't want to lose people like Pike... come on, the whole UFP and SF is supposed to contain people like him because they all grew up in a similar environment that taught them pretty much the same things and exposed them to the same principles and ideals - so there would be no shortage of such people.
If you want to keep certain ships out of the line of fire for rebuilding, that's fine, but sidelining some of the most powerful ships at the time doesn't make sense.
Drama trumps logic in live action apparently. I'd WISH the writers would stop with over the top drama and just write better/intelligent stories that work with the highly advanced (and continuosly advancing technology) as opposed to just throwing everything to the brink for the sake of drama.
Disco is now heading into Season 4, and yet again, the stakes are being 'raised' with the fate of the Federation at line.
Same thing was done over the past 3 seasons... they have a chance to make some intelligent stories with advanced technology that would be compelling, but yet again, 'drama' takes precedence.
No wonder the animated series are better... they don't over-dramatize.
Last edited:
That should be a quote pasted in all Star Trek writers room.
There's an old saying "Less is more".
We don't need every season to be "World Ending" stakes or every single movie to be "World Ending".
Gradually ramp things up over time, but not everything should be "End of the Universe" level of issues.
"End of the Universe" type scenarios should be fairly rare and special.
I was thinking about this more as I was falling asleep last night (is that sad? 
).
).- First, I'd like to thank EVERYONE who's contributed to this thread. I have learned *a lot*. I'd especially like to thank those of you who have shared your knowledge about militaries, both modern and historical, and all the different missions/purposes that have been/are part of them.
- Secondly, the fact there *are* so many different opinions - and nuances of opinion! - that can be backed by dialog and situations over the course of all the series leads me to think that:
- IRL, it's completely dependent on the writers and showrunners and the needs of the plots, and therefore consistently inconsistent. (Duh.)
- We can discuss this until the sun burns out and never get any kind of consensus.
- C: IRL, many of Starfleet's "non-military" functions (exploration, diplomacy, science, etc.) are carried out by real militaries and I think that is a chicken-and-egg problem. Are these functions often carried out by military organizations because they're *inherently* part of military functions or has it just always been that way because we humans have tended to put military organizations first in our thinking and budgeting, so they have usually had the most/best resources? I tend to think the latter, but recognize that there's room for various opinions here too.
- ZedZedBeta: One of the reasons I like how @KamenRiderBlade put things is because Federation priorities and the ideas that Starfleet personnel have on what their mission and purpose are tend to change with time, location, and circumstances. IRL, my father-in-law's experience "flying a desk" in the 50s, nowhere near any actual fighting, was quite different from my grandfather's experience in a bomber in the Pacific in WWII, and both were different from someone on the frontlines in Afghanistan in the last 2 decades. Over in @Turtletrekker's chronological rewatch thread, @Scionz has some *fantastic* posts tracing the history of the Federation and it's "cycles of exploration->growth->retrenchment->militarization->war->peace/disarmament->exploration." They start here: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/chr...rical-perspective.309003/page-2#post-13889000.
- ETA: I forgot this! "Military Organization" = yes. This is a terminology thing. Starfleet is organized like a military, ie., ranks, courts martial, etc.
- Lastly, you all have blown my mind with your knowledge, humor, and general awesomeness.
Last edited:
YES!^ Bookmarking your post for future linking. 
Sometimes they seem to be, sometimes not. Both ways are canon. It is a speed of plot issue. It is only important to the story being told at the time.
It does cause continuity issues though, which have led to this conversation repeating to time in memoriam.
Sometimes they seem to be, sometimes not. Both ways are canon. It is a speed of plot issue. It is only important to the story being told at the time.
It does cause continuity issues though, which have led to this conversation repeating to time in memoriam.
Similar threads
- Poll
