Is Starfleet a military organization?
- Thread starter Commander Troi
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Yes, again, because only the navy had suitable ships for naval exploration at the time.
Would an organization that merges NASA, the Coast Guard, all kinds of research and expeditionary organizations, HHMI, federal health and cancer centers, all police forces, united disaster relief units, combined firefighter groups, NOAA, USGS, NSF, NIH, and also the military then still be just the military again?
Keeping words like court martial doesn't mean much... they're using many nautical terms, and yet they're not at sea
Are they Air Force / Navy officers... or NASA/ESA/CSA officers? If military officers form a Trek fan club, does the club become a military?
And he was speaking about the Federation, not Starfleet XD
Wiki speaks:
The Navy paid for finding two nuclear subs, not the Titanic. They were allowed to search for Titanic after the subs were investigated. Knorr was owned by the Navy, but operated by WHOI and part of the UNOLS fleet.
The SGC is clearly an Air Force installation, the teams wear combat gear and camouflage uniforms, and they carry rifles to each mission. How many SF away teams go explore places with combat gear, battle uniforms, and rifles?
Are regular police and security forces, which are typically armed, not civilian agencies?
No, both. but he was specifically speaking about Starfleet. if the Federation is an Armada it is a bunch of ships. That might be correct for the 31st century, but how can you be that obtuse?
All this history has been fascinating, but I think it also shows the problem with the question itself. As has been pointed out, the definition of "military" has changed over time and will most likely continue to do so. But the shows were/are *written* in our time, and therefore subject to the underlying assumptions and culture, including the fact that, for various reasons, exploration and other non-fighting tasks have usually been handled or assisted by a military organization.
Someone mentioned Stargate and that's what really got me thinking. Here and now, if something alien was found, it would be turned over to the military. It's part of how our government and culture are set up. So military personnel, with military and non-military scientists, go through the Stargate. On that score, Stargate is realistic.
I think that honestly makes it very difficult to come up with something far in the future that doesn't look at least a little like the present (and past). Add that to the need to make a TV show with action and adventure so people will actually *watch* it... and we fans get to argue forever.
I'm not sure the question actually has an answer. Certainly not one that will satisfy everyone.
Someone mentioned Stargate and that's what really got me thinking. Here and now, if something alien was found, it would be turned over to the military. It's part of how our government and culture are set up. So military personnel, with military and non-military scientists, go through the Stargate. On that score, Stargate is realistic.
I think that honestly makes it very difficult to come up with something far in the future that doesn't look at least a little like the present (and past). Add that to the need to make a TV show with action and adventure so people will actually *watch* it... and we fans get to argue forever.
I'm not sure the question actually has an answer. Certainly not one that will satisfy everyone.
You would have an easier time getting consensus on one pizza topping.I'm not sure the question actually has an answer. Certainly not one that will satisfy everyone.
Easy - pepperoni.
They're still Air Force/Navy officers, on detached duty to NASA/ESA/CSA. This gets touched on in The Martian where Jessica Chastain notes that if they turn around back to Mars in violation of NASA's orders, herself and Michael Pena's character (the only two who were military officers) could be court-martialed when they return to Earth.
Immaterial. The script mistakenly had Federation written, but due to the Writer's Strike, they couldn't legally change it to Starfleet. It was either leave the mistake in there, or hold up production until after the strike ended so they could make the correction.
Clearly not enough, given how many regularly get killed on the average away team. Okay, sarcasm aside, all of the away teams we've seen in Disco, at least in the first two seasons had combat gear and battle uniforms,
Indeed, that's the important thing to remember, regardless of when these shows take place, they are made for audiences in the 20th and 21st centuries, and because of that, it needs to present the world in terms they will understand and relate to. Presenting Starfleet as the military in space. Everyone knows what the military is, nothing further needs to be explained. Audience is hooked. Trying to pass Starfleet off as some sort of futuristic quasi-military that isn't military is going to make most people shrug and change the channel. Why watch a show that doesn't give a clear indication of what its characters are part of when there are plenty of other shows to choose from about police departments, fire departments, hospitals, and even a few about the actual military? The Roddenberry of 1960s knew this which is why he Starfleet definitively military in TOS. The Roddenberry of 1980s knew TNG had a built-in audience who would watch it because it was Star Trek, and took that for granted adding in a bunch of ideas that 1960s Roddenberry would have been completely against.
As it is, TNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise had a lot of stuff that the TOS Writer's Guide was completely against, but that's a different topic entirely.
Legally, it would be a dual-hatted military and emergency services/law enforcement organization as the USCG already is because those are the components that require a legal mandate to operate.
No, they aren't legally, because they have powers and authorities that civilians do not.
However, for the same reason most though not all police forces also aren't military because they lack the additional power and authorities that militaries do (i.e. to fight in wars (for example this is why Germany's GS9 isn't military, but the USCG is)).
Starfleet has both sets of powers and authorities and is therefore legally a military according to the modern definition.
In US law, police are usually defined as "civilian law enforcement" to distinguish themselves from military law enforcement (MPs and such). I imagine private security forces would be the same. Being "armed" in the United States, and many other countries, doesn't really carry the connotation of militarization.
Police often don't consider themselves civilians, in nomenclature and internal policy, but that appears to conflict with what they are, legally. There's also the matter of several police forces, such as the NYPD recently, fortifying their civilian status in press releases and statements in the wake of those who consider them to have militarized.
It's all a matter of semantics. What words mean. And that's the crux of 90% of all arguments. You consider the police military, but the NYPD Commissioner doesn't. I consider Starfleet to be military, but Starfleet Captain Archer doesn't. Who's right, who's wrong? All of us? None of us? It all depends on who's definition we're using. I suspect we're using different ones.
In much the same way that in the context of the fictional Star Trek Universe, only the military (Starfleet) has the resources necessary for long-range deep space exploration.
I'm not sure what you mean by "just," but it would be a military, yes. Because, once again, if it is the agency of the state that is legally charged with defending the state in times of war or violent conflict, then it is the military. It may also have co-equal missions, but having that one mission of state defense makes it the military.
No, it literally does. See, having a court-martial means that there's a separate set of laws that apply to members of the military, giving the military the right to literally arrest, charge, try, and imprison you if you are a member who disobeys orders. That is incredibly important. If I work at Subway and I disobey my manager's orders, Subway does not have the legal authority to arrest me, charge me with disobeying an order, try me in an internal Subway court, and then imprison me at a Subway prison. If you work as a mid-level software developer at Google, and you disobey your boss, Google doesn't get to arrest you, charge you with disobeying an order, try you in an internal Google court, and imprison you in a Google prison.
That is absolutely one of the most important legal distinctions between a military and a non-military. Civilian employers do not have the right to imprison their employees for disobedience. The military does.
And we have, indeed, seen canonically that Starfleet has the legal authority to arrest its members, charge them with disobedience, try them in Starfleet courts, and imprison them in Starfleet prisons.
As has been noted above, they remain military officers seconded to NASA, and subject to courts-martial by the military service of which they are members if they disobey NASA orders (because they have legally binding orders to obey NASA authorities during the term to which they are seconded to NASA).
Every single time we see Starfleet Security officers on an away team/boarding party/landing party pull out a phaser, it's the same thing.
Depends on the plot. People die a lot.
uss constalation in the doomesday machine has more casulties than the whole of scg. there's also a vulcan crewed conny (can't remember the episode atm) - the korolev is a russian ship and dead jaffa don't count
edited while @fireproof78 was already replying
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Wrong episode. I believe the Intrepid, with an all Vulcan crew, was from "The Immunity Factor" no the "Doomsday Machine." A whole planet was destroyed in "Doomsday Machine." Naturally, that will have a higher body count.
Not saying that Star Trek didn't use the random extras of the week liberally, but I can recall SGC personnel dying too.
yep - just changed it. the doomesday machine is the uss constellation. if that planet had a population it wouldn't count as they'd be civilians but decker beamed his crew down - so we have 800 dead guys from just two ships.
... and don't even let me start on the dominion war
Ok, I won't.
Thank you.
but that's of course - if the guys in stargate bought too many farms the plot goes kaboom (being secret and all that) - not even major davis* can hush up a dead division
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* that dude should have been promoted
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