I think this is the closest I've seen to a justification I can buy.
Civil discussion eh? That's something that's close to impossible on Doctor Who forums right now, especially in the wake of recent news in that sphere.
Swearing in Star Trek - Steve Shives
- Thread starter Tuskin38
- Start date
I think this is the closest I've seen to a justification I can buy.
Civil discussion eh? That's something that's close to impossible on Doctor Who forums right now, especially in the wake of recent news in that sphere.
Granted, but did I say "nervous student"? No; I said "nervous ingenue." A generally feminine word (is there a masculine equivalent?) that connotes innocence, guilelessness, and a total lack of cunning and worldliness.
The dismissal of invented obscenities in the video was (if you'll pardon my Yiddish) totally fakakta. We use foreign obscenities all the time (and I'm hardly the only Goy* who occasionally cusses in Yiddish). Why wouldn't characters in a science fiction or fantasy milieu invoke obscenities borrowed from languages of that milieu? And if you don't agree with me on that, then (if you'll pardon my Quenya) nalye i orchion!**
"Fucking cool" rings kind of false with me, not so much because of the "fucking" part as the "cool" part. The use of "cool" to mean fashionable, wonderful, good, &c. (rather than to mean unfeeling, as in the "Cool, Considerate Men" production number in Edwards & Stone's 1776) is a 20th century innovation. Do we really think that usage is still going to exist in the 23rd century?
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*I'm not a "gentile"; I'm a goy, just as I'm not a "white guy"; I'm a honkie (or even a blue-eyed devil)!
**I think just called you the offspring of goblins.
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They say fuck quite often. But it is true the word fuck was mostly held to the pilot. That was due to AMC rules, not due to the artistic direction. But they continued to use fuck sparingly as much as they could get away with it, anyway.
It's stuck around beyond the 20th century and passed through generations in a way that as 'groovy', 'far out', 'radical' and 'boogie' haven't. I can't see any reason why it wouldn't stick around now it's embedded in culture.
My bad. I didn't know that.
AMC hey? I'm rewatching Preacher with the wife and that's an AMC show that's also noticeable for the lack of it.
ETA - Just watched the video and not only does it make me want to watch the show again, but also makes me feel a little embarrassed about how often they do use it... 29 uses over 5 seasons. Checked Better Call Saul is well which is another show I thought was F-Bomb free but so far, only 17 in 5 seasons.
So not that many, but more than the 'none' I claimed.
Sheer fucking hubris, Richard!
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Very few people never swear at all these days. Censoring swear words doesn't make any sense anymore.
Here's my take on it and why I find it helpful to the world building. One, I have always taken Star Trek as an extrapolation of our own world and and humanity, which means that things that impact us as humans now I expect to impact humans in the future in some capacity. TOS and DS9 were a bit better at embracing this idea, but still portrayed this highly refined humanity who would be untouched by current humanity's foibles. When they do use swearing it usually adds a small amount of punch.
So, to my mind, especially given the history of the word "fuck" and its endurance I find it extremely hard to believe that it would not exist, and that people were basically dancing around it due to censorship standards, not because they had evolved past it.
Do I think it was needed? No, but few things are. Star Trek isn't needed. But, if Star Trek is produced and is to be relatable to current humanity then I think showing that some things change, but somethings don't, helps audiences go "Yup, I get it." There's a reason why McCoy and his saltiness is a fan favorite. We know people like that or can relate to attitudes like that.
Thank you for the definition as I had no idea what the word meant.
Still, same attitude applies. Assuming that a person by apperances would never swear has never had a positive outcome for me in my life.
I was surprised by the dismissal of invented obscenties as well, but I took his point well enough. Again, this isn't some made up world-Star Trek is to be about our humanity. And, as has been repeatedly stated throughout this thread, "fuck" has a long history in the English language and has not gone away. "Cool" may not be used as frequently but I work with enough youngers to know that they know what it means, even if they don't use it. So, I would be hard pressed to say "Oh, cool is so 21st century." Language evolves in strange ways and the constant decrying of it because of certain words in Star Trek ignores a lot of history.
And the fact that you have to explain those foreign or made up swears, while I can say "Fuck" without any explanation showcases that some words just work in the moment and convey anything with out explanation. A show shouldn't have to pause when a made up swear is used to make sure the audience got it. I certainly didn't understand "gorram" from Firefly; I thought it was mispronunciation of "God damn."
No, but it is hilarious.
Okay then. So glad we had this chat.
You know, just a few posts up I stated something false, then when corrected admitted my wrong and thanked the poster in question.
What’s the point in engaging in debate if you can’t do it courteously?
Amusement
Whatever then. Enjoy your day. 
If you make a living on YouTube as Shives does you need engagement and that often impacts the length of these things. Plus, that's his schtick.
But to an audience that doesn't know those words it just sounds like what it is: an obvious dodge from using the word we all know they're really supposed to be saying. That's why Frak and Felgercarb etc. got laughed at so much.
And language changes. Fuck has long since been used far more frequently as an intensifier than as a word meaning to fornicate (just as we use "so" as a softener even though it's grammatically unnecessary in that usage). We've just taken longer to accept it in that light than words like shit/shitty, which used to be verbotten as well.
I don't know. You seem to be taking for granted that profanity is a Bad Thing, signifying immaturity and lack of control and a sick society, as opposed to just a colorful and sometimes forceful means of expression, which perfectly sane and civilized people can sometimes use to good effect. It's not that people NEED to swear; it's just something human beings do, for all sorts of reasons. Including, yes, the fact that expressing your emotions is not always a bad thing. We're not Vulcans and we're not supposed to be.
Look at "This Side of Paradise." Kirk and Co. actually find it weird that the brainwashed colonists never lose their cool, and are relieved when, after after the spores are burned out, the settlers go back to bickering and quarreling among themselves, like normal humans do. I'm suddenly imagining an updated version in which Kirk finds it weird that the colonists never swear -- and breathes a sigh of relief when they start cussing him out at the end.
The way I see it, any "utopian" society in which people seem to have "evolved" beyond profanity is probably more like a sterile dystopia created by brain-warping spores or an insane computer-god.
See also "Return of the Archons," "The Apple," etc. Wanna bet that Landru doesn't approve of swearing?
It is curious to me to hear this idea that swearing is a sign of a less evolved species. It's almost like treating Trek characters as science experiments rather than characters who experience emotions and that such emotions are not ok to express. Moving back to stiff upper lip?I don't know. You seem to be taking for granted that profanity is a Bad Thing, signifying immaturity and lack of control and a sick society, as opposed to just a colorful and sometimes forceful means of expression, which perfectly sane and civilized people can sometimes use to good effect. It's not that people NEED to swear; it's just something human beings do, for all sorts of reasons. Including, yes, the fact that expressing your emotions is not always a bad thing. We're not Vulcans and we're not supposed to be.
Look at "This Side of Paradise." Kirk and Co. actually find it weird that the brainwashed colonists never lose their cool, and are relieved when, after after the spores are burned out, the settlers go back to bickering and quarreling among themselves, like normal humans do. I'm suddenly imagining an updated version in which Kirk finds it weird that the colonists never swear -- and breathes a sigh of relief when they start cussing him out at the end.
The way I see it, any "utopian" society in which people seem to have "evolved" beyond profanity is probably more like a sterile dystopia created by brain-warping spores or an insane computer-god.
See also "Return of the Archons," "The Apple," etc. Wanna bet that Landru doesn't approve of swearing?
My understanding is that the latter obscenity is spelled with a "k," i.e., "Felgerkarb."
Not that I was ever a much of a fan of the original "Cattlecar Gigantica" (I saw it, but eventually lost interest, along with almost everybody else), much less the reboot.
If he can make me laugh for 18 minutes, I'll watch him for 18 minutes.
Since the point seems to have been concern over the fact that, in past times, f-bombs weren't heard in Star Trek, that reads to me as if as his primary concern was how well the f-bombs would be received by the audience. And I agree that the fact that they weren't stricken means that his concerns about their reception were put to rest.
I found the "sheer fucking hubris" line to be one of the highlights of PIC S1. It perfectly summed up Picard's attitude, and it was one the welcome elements that presented the hero in a less than favorable light. That's in contrast to TNG, which seemed to maintain the tone of taking Picard's side, even when he was being an arrogant, holier-than-thou ass.
YMMV.
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