Star Trek TNG Wanted To Replace Will Riker With His Doppelganger
- Thread starter Ar-Pharazon
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I believe they're saying maybe he got demoted in the 2 years between Second Chance and Defiant. Given he was far gone enough to join the Marquis, I can see him having disciplinary issues leading up to that.
I wonder why they never brought him back after DS9s Defiant? Does anyone have any info?
JB
JB
I never got the appeal of this idea ... Will Riker was a fine character, apparently the writers were bored with him which is too bad but that's not a reason to kill him, I don't see why Thomas Riker would be a particular better or more interesting character, for either the writers or viewers. Too much change and shakeup and loss/decrease of the close family feel that the show had.
Good that Riker did later actually have "The Pegasus".
They had (almost) all become pretty comfortable in their positions and that's OK, fine, understandable that they liked their jobs, positions and crewmates.
Good that Riker did later actually have "The Pegasus".
They had (almost) all become pretty comfortable in their positions and that's OK, fine, understandable that they liked their jobs, positions and crewmates.
Here's how it breaks down though. When Will got promoted up to LCDR, after returning from Nervala IV, it was a field promotion, like Worf got from Picard in Generations, but when Tom is found, he doesn't have an active post anymore, so there's no established commanding officer to promote him similarly, like Will had 8 years earlier. He just has to wait until a post opens up & continue on at his current rank. It doesn't seem fair, but it's just the breaks.
As to why he's still a lieutenant on DS9, takes a little more imagination. Why would Tom not get any promotions in a couple years? Why would he become disillusioned enough to turn Maqui? Think of what happened between Second Chances, & The Defiant... The Pegasus scandal. Picard even remarks that this incident may well damage Will's reputation some, but it's the kind of thing his subsequent record might help him weather
Tom had no such subsequent record. When all that mutiny stuff came out, it would've sullied Tom just as much, without the benefit of later accomplishments to soften the blow. I imagine him losing a LOT of face on board the Gandhi, & his prospects for promotion dwindled.
That's my point too. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water. If your character isn't delivering, you don't need a new character you just need a new way to present them
The likely scenario is that they delayed his promotion due to mental health concerns, not to mention he was technically out of starfleet for 8 years.
If you retire the day before you get promoted, you're gonna have to shake off the rust before that option comes back.
Seriously it was such an obvious thing to do, it worked on so many levels.
It reminds me of Barclay and Troy on Voyager.
Some things really really work. Tom Riker was just such an interest character, specifically his defection to the maquis.
Another aspect to this, from a real-world perspective, is that Frakes was billed as the other star of the show, along with Stewart. They are the only two to be billed as "starring" and not "also starring." Not sure how Frakes would have taken to shifting to playing a different character that is ostensibly less important than the first officer.
That's an interesting point. I think however, we might all agree that the "Breakout" successful supporting character, who ended up becoming more of a 2nd star was actually Spiner's Data. Like Spock, he was kind of a face for the brand, & as a result was a way more featured character in the film franchise, which Frakes seemingly had no issue with continuing to be a part of, in a less pivotal role.
It wouldn't exactly be the 1st time that a surprise fan favorite became a more influential character in a series, overshadowing some of the previously more prominent players. It happens a lot actually.
That said, I'm still not in favor of it. Even in this context, Data was the breakout character he was, especially because he wasn't a more pivotal officer in the rank structure. Data's primary arc & dynamic was of experiencing & exploring humanity. Riker's was of experiencing & exploring command. For Data to take on that role, undermines his very recipe. Data the person could be a 1st officer for Picard, but Data the Star Trek Character could not be what Riker's character was to the show, without sacrificing everything that made him great, in lieu of assuming the Riker role.
IMHO, what might make for an interesting turn for Riker, would be at Data's expense. His impact on a weekly basis would be altered in a less beneficial way, in having to be "#1", instead of "Mr. Data"
Maybe, but I don't think it would necessarily have been at the expense of stories for Data. We've seen him in the XO role a few times, but not on a permanent basis. I think it would have been an interesting avenue to explore his balancing command responsibilities and friendships. He's proven to be a capable XO in those few occasions, but we never got to see beyond him on the bridge as XO. He might even make errors that would cost lives... I don't think we ever saw him actually give orders that directly resulted in deaths. That would have been some wonderful stuff for Data to explore.
Obviously it got rewritten for Picard but my memory says that the ST09 prequel comics had B4 reloaded as Data commanding the EE
In other news - Football's coming home!!!!!!!
Autobiography was similar. Data had downloaded himself into B4, but B4's hardware couldn't hold Data's personality. So Q... well, "upgraded" him. Maybe he felt he owed it to his "professor of the humanities".
Since Riker Prime "earned" a promotion because of his "valorous" efforts to help save people during the evacuation of Nervala IV, surely Tom would have been entitled to the same promotion.
And yet, Defiant tells us he was still a lowly lieutenant. WTF?
My personal head canon is that the blowback from the Pegasus incident caused Tom to get busted back down to lieutenant.
I quite like that. Always say Q as a bit of a shithouse but with good intentions/a soft spot for certain people so him doing something like that is pretty cool.
I can't remember the time line well enough - take it the Pegasus incident predated the transporter one?
But that's hard to buy imho, since Will never got busted down in rank for the same action. That action, btw was that he supported his captain during a mutiny, & despite it being over illegal actions by the captain, Riker had insufficient knowledge of that. So the only thing Riker is proven guilty of to us, is supporting a captain he probably didn't know was acting illegally. I doubt either Riker would've gotten busted for that, just a damaged reputation, especially over not coming forward about it sooner, which also isn't likely to get them busted down either, because how was he ever going to take down Admiral Pressman on his own, with no evidence?
However, Will's promotion to LCDR was given by the captain of the Potemkin. It was a rank & post he/she wanted Will to hold. Tom isn't serving under that captain for 8 years now. There's no commanding officer to promote him. He's inactive, until he takes the assignment on the Gandhi... & that captain was offering a Lt. post.
I think people who expect Tom should've also gotten promoted, the way Will had 8 years prior, are thinking of a promotion like it's a commendation. Let's say Will also got decorated for his actions on Nervala IV, with a medal for gallantry, like Data's. There yes, Tom would also merit receiving that same commendation, but a promotion is imho more like a job offer, & Tom doesn't have that availability, as of his return. Picard is not his commanding officer, & can't just give him the rank. He isn't in active service anymore, & maybe no one was interested in recruiting him at an increased rank, after 8 years out. Tom himself admits he's lucky to even get the Lt. offer from the Gandhi.
Because "Commander" Riker ultimately came forward and made the right decision when "the moment came," (As Picard specifically said.) "Commander" Riker also had eight more years of "respected" service behind him to help him skate any repercussions.
Neither was true for "Lieutenant" Tom Riker.
The crew of the Pegasus, Riker included, knew full well what was going on. They were experimenting with the cloaking device at the time of the mutiny.
According to the episode, Riker received a promotion as a direct result of his heroic actions on Nervala 4. Therefore, Tom Riker is entitled to the same promotion. He literally already "earned" it. He's the same person as the one who got promoted, for the exact same reasons. It should have been retroactively given to him the second everyone knew what happened. I suspect the writers didn't think that deeply about it, or even if they did, wanted to still use the shorthand of "lieutenant" Riker to differentiate the characters.
The captain of the Gandhi was not offering a "lieutenant post." That's not how it works. You don't have positions earmarked for only specific ranks. We've seen countless times in Trek's history people doing the same job while holding various ranks. No one says, "I have a position available on my ship, but only for a lieutenant." That's just plainly not how it works at all. Tom should have left the ENT-D as a Lt. Commander, period.
A promotion is nothing at all like a job offer. Almost every time we've seen a character get promoted in Trek, it didn't change their actual job.
We're getting a little metaphysical here, but Tom and Will were the same person during the actions that earned them the promotion. Both did the same thing. The split happened. But Tom was literally promoted in absentia for the same actions for which Will was promoted. He literally already "had" the promotion.
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