Star Trek TNG Wanted To Replace Will Riker With His Doppelganger

[Mojochi]

Because "Commander" Riker ultimately came forward and made the right decision when "the moment came," (As Picard specifically said.) "Commander" Riker also had eight more years of "respected" service behind him to help him skate any repercussions

Neither of which would make Tom more guilty, & meriting of individual punishment. Will only came forward when the pressure came up. Tom actually had less availability of opportunity to do so. Basically you're saying Tom is punished but not Will, because Pressman chose Will to pressure, which just makes Tom a victim of circumstance. Will's subsequent service would've only mattered in areas of respect lost, not in actual penalization IMHO. Imagine a court so unjust as to punish one but not the other. Eeeek.

The crew of the Pegasus, Riker included, knew full well what was going on. They were experimenting with the cloaking device at the time of the mutiny.

But Riker was clearly not experienced fully enough to understand its illegality. He didn't support Pressman because he thought he was right. In subsequent years, upon reflection, he admits realizing he'd been wrong, He admits only following Pressman because he was the captain, which means he couldn't have understood the gravity of the captain's actions, or his own duty to object.

To merge the 2 points, I think my basic issue with your premise is that it maintains that both Rikers should be treated differently for something that happened when they weren't two individuals, (the Pegasus situation) but that they should be treated the same for something that happened after they wound up two people... (Will's promotion by the Potemkin captain)

I honestly see reason to think it the other way round, that it would be wholly unjust to penalize only Tom for what happened on Pegasus, regardless of who came forward, but somewhat sensible that years out of service might negatively impact a move up in rank, as I still don't see those as obligatory, however you frame it.

Granted this is all just head canon fantasy. So, there's nothing concrete to say, that should stop either of us from thinking whatever we want happened, regardless if it makes sense to the other or not. To each his own

 

[Crewman6]

Neither of which would make Tom more guilty, & meriting of individual punishment. Will only came forward when the pressure came up. Tom actually had less availability of opportunity to do so. Basically you're saying Tom is punished but not Will, because Pressman chose Will to pressure, which just makes Tom a victim of circumstance. Will's subsequent service would've only mattered in areas of respect lost, not in actual penalization IMHO. Imagine a court so unjust as to punish one but not the other. Eeeek.

I'm not saying my theory about Tom being punished is air tight. It's very muddy and exists only to justify, in my head, why he wasn't a Lieutenant Commander in "Defiant." Yes, Will was given the "opportunity" to come forward, but prior to that, he spent 8 years in silence. Tom didn't have that "opportunity", but he still had the chance to come forward after his rescue and didn't. Both are deserving of some form of punishment, certainly. "The Pegasus" wants us to believe that WIll's punishment won't be all that significant (and, of course, given the non-serialized nature of TNG, we never see what it turned out to be). I can see them being a little harsher on the version of Riker that never spoke up. Does it make 100% sense? No. It's a silly fan theory.

But Riker was clearly not experienced fully enough to understand its illegality. He didn't support Pressman because he thought he was right. In subsequent years, upon reflection, he admits realizing he'd been wrong, He admits only following Pressman because he was the captain, which means he couldn't have understood the gravity of the captain's actions, or his own duty to object.

But here's where I disagree. EVERYONE knew that cloaking devices were illegal. It wasn't some obscure legal footnote somewhere. Even a lowly ensign would know what they were doing was wrong and even a lowly ensign, by Starfleet standards, would have a responsibility to object. Everyone on the crew of the Pegasus bears some culpability, but the mutineers at least tried to stop the crime at some point.

To merge the 2 points, I think my basic issue with your premise is that it maintains that both Rikers should be treated differently for something that happened when they weren't two individuals, (the Pegasus situation) but that they should be treated the same for something that happened after they wound up two people... (Will's promotion by the Potemkin captain)

No! Forget about the Pegasus entirely for a moment. Will and Tom should be treated the same for something that happened BEFORE they became two people. BOTH of them did the exact same thing at Nervala 4 and they only split at the very end, when they were being beamed out last.

Imagine a situation where there's an olympic athlete. The athlete wins her event. She's won the gold medal! However, while she's in the bathroom prior to the actual medal ceremony, an accident happens that creates two versions of her.

BOTH versions are entitled to the gold medal, since it was won by "both" of them when they were one person. Same with Will's promotion. Tom was actually "promoted", just no one knew it. The being known as WT Riker earned the promotion for his actions. No one realized that being now consisted of two individuals, but it doesn't make it any less legit.

Granted this is all just head canon fantasy. So, there's nothing concrete to say, that should stop either of us from thinking whatever we want happened, regardless if it makes sense to the other or not. To each his own

Well, certainly!

 

[Mojochi]

I'm not saying my theory about Tom being punished is air tight. It's very muddy and exists only to justify, in my head, why he wasn't a Lieutenant Commander in "Defiant."

That's cool, but it's also kind of vague in thinking he'd be one to begin with imho, when we never see it, & the writing implies he left for the Gandhi as a Lt. If it were automatic, then no one would ever have thought twice about the rank. He'd have been addressed throughout as LCDR.

It's fairly implied he was reactivated as a Lt. which negates the need for a fix for why he's still one later. For whatever reason in our fictional Starfleet, a promotion in this situation is not automatic, & as such he never made LCDR. It's a neater explanation, at least to me

But here's where I disagree. EVERYONE knew that cloaking devices were illegal. It wasn't some obscure legal footnote somewhere. Even a lowly ensign would know what they were doing was wrong and even a lowly ensign, by Starfleet standards, would have a responsibility to object. Everyone on the crew of the Pegasus bears some culpability, but the mutineers at least tried to stop the crime at some point.

But isn't the episode a parable of the "Just following orders" theme? So we all know blind obedience is no excuse, but it also isn't the same as the crime, & often catches less penalty. So we're expected to believe it didn't carry any loss of rank for Will. It just seems way more unjust of Starfleet than I'm comfortable imagining if they subjected Tom to it, solely because he didn't come forward, when Will only did, because a 2nd crew was again in jeopardy over it.

Heck, Tom's career wasn't even in a place to be challenging admirals out of nowhere, once he got a commission anyhow. If Will wasn't otherwise going to out himself as a Pressman stooge, after all his glorious years of service, why would Tom, who was barely clinging to what career he could muster?

Imagine a situation where there's an olympic athlete. The athlete wins her event. She's won the gold medal! However, while she's in the bathroom prior to the actual medal ceremony, an accident happens that creates two versions of her.

BOTH versions are entitled to the gold medal, since it was won by "both" of them when they were one person. Same with Will's promotion. Tom was actually "promoted", just no one knew it. The being known as WT Riker earned the promotion for his actions. No one realized that being now consisted of two individuals, but it doesn't make it any less legit.

I'm so glad the example you used was a literal medal. That much I'd agree on. They actually have medals for bravery, or gallantry. Data has one, & I'd even bet Will got one for Nervala IV too. So yeah, Tom should & more than likely would get that same medal also, but a promotion is a different thing than a commendation imho. Will didn't just get promoted as a reward for the act. He got it because the person he was serving under wanted him to be a higher rank in their crew, because of the qualities he exhibited during that crisis. Tom doesn't have that crew is all I'm saying. Hence he seemingly didn't achieve the same result

 

[Crewman6]

But isn't the episode a parable of the "Just following orders" theme? So we all know blind obedience is no excuse, but it also isn't the same as the crime, & often catches less penalty. So we're expected to believe it didn't carry any loss of rank for Will. It just seems way more unjust of Starfleet than I'm comfortable imagining if they subjected Tom to it, solely because he didn't come forward, when Will only did, because a 2nd crew was again in jeopardy over it.

I legit don't care if you don't like my "demotion" theory, vis a vis the events of "The Pegasus." It's a silly theory that doesn't hold up to true scrutiny, it's just a goofy idea I came up with to "justify" in my own head the rank issue. Not gonna argue one bit about it, I don't disagree with any of your critiques.

I'm so glad the example you used was a literal medal. That much I'd agree on. They actually have medals for bravery, or gallantry. Data has one, & I'd even bet Will got one for Nervala IV too. So yeah, Tom should & more than likely would get that same medal also, but a promotion is a different thing than a commendation imho. Will didn't just get promoted as a reward for the act. He got it because the person he was serving under wanted him to be a higher rank in their crew, because of the qualities he exhibited during that crisis. Tom doesn't have that crew is all I'm saying. Hence he seemingly didn't achieve the same result

Tom already "got" the promotion. He was the same "person" who earned it. His commanding officer promoted him, too (just without knowing it.) He was promoted specifically due to his gallantry/bravery during the evacuation. Tom was ALSO the guy who the "captain wanted to be a higher rank." They are very literally the same. He GOT the promotion. He didn't NEED to ALSO get it. He already had it.

There is no philosophical/moral/metaphysical difference between Tom and Will at the moment the promotion was given. Like my medal example, they both did the deed that earned it. Tom actually earned it and it was given to "him."

It would have been a funny scene if he made a stink about it on the Enterprise and demanded it.

 

[Mojochi]

^ I mean, that they never recognize it in the episode kind of sends the opposite message imho, in that they only ever call him Lt. Nobody there is seeing this guy as a LCDR. So to me that's the definitive take.

I also still think that once there was 2 of them (After which the promotion was given) They aren't the same guy anymore, nor are they living the same life, & anything subsequent happens of its own accord, including promotions or lack thereof

But hey, I'll drop it now, because I feel like I'm belaboring what is really just fantasy musings on both our parts, & I'm never one to want to deprive anyone of that. It's kind of what Trek fans do.

 

[Crewman6]

^ I mean, that they never recognize it in the episode kind of sends the opposite message imho, in that they only ever call him Lt. Nobody there is seeing this guy as a LCDR. So to me that's the definitive take.

I also still think that once there was 2 of them (After which the promotion was given) They aren't the same guy anymore, nor are they living the same life, & anything subsequent happens of its own accord, including promotions or lack thereof

But hey, I'll drop it now, because I feel like I'm belaboring what is really just fantasy musings on both our parts, & I'm never one to want to deprive anyone of that. It's kind of what Trek fans do.

My last word on the subject:

I know that they call him "Lt" throughout the episode. I think it didn't occur to them that "Tom" also deserved the promotion.

But, as to your second point, they "aren't the same guy" anymore, sure. But they WERE the same guy when the heroic actions that earned the promotion took place. So literally, they both got it.

But, yeah, we're going in circles now. Have fun!