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Synth Cloning Technology

Dryson

Commodore
Commodore
With the Synths being able to Clone Picard, the Synth Cloning technology is basically able to clone any species.

Could Synth Cloning return the consciousness of an X-B to a non-implant body that would then age naturally?

What would happen if the Synth Cloning Technology is stolen by the Romulans, Breen or other Threat Force? Would the Threat Force be able to use the cloning technology to create an army in the trillions and an armada of ships in the tens of thousands?
 
Could Synth Cloning return the consciousness of an X-B to a non-implant body that would then age naturally?
Unknown, we don't know what differences the Borg-ification process does to the mind, are there incompatibilities?

What would happen if the Synth Cloning Technology is stolen by the Romulans, Breen or other Threat Force? Would the Threat Force be able to use the cloning technology to create an army in the trillions and an armada of ships in the tens of thousands?
You can effectively guranteee "Life after death".

Once the mortal traditional biological body dies, a digital replicant of the Memory Synapses can be recorded and saved for later to be implanted into a Synthetic body that is a "Synthetic" life form that mimics the original biological form to a very fine detail.

Assuming that the data doesn't get corrupted, the person can stay alive effective indefinitely and duplicate their memory engrams and potentially have many "Host bodies" as they desire.

You can guarantee that you could create millions of clones of officers, and each one of them has the biological "Unique-ness" of the original, but with the Android Strength and capabilities of data.

You can even use Subspace transceivers like the borg and share data & knowledge across the network like the borg, even with the original and learn many times faster and experience multiple things faster.

Also, you can afford to do more "Risky" things since you have clones that are somewhat expendable.

If you ever watch the Anime series "A Certain Scientific Railgun" & "A Certain Magical Index", they delve into the clones & original topic heavily considering it's one of the core plot elements.

But the original can exist with all the clone derivatives and co-exist / share knowledge if desired, while maintaining their own unique-ness.

A "Private Network" can exist between the clones and they can all communicate silently via Subspace Transceiver and share information.

That gives you incredible power, and since the information is from your own clone, there generally wouldn't be a trust issue.
 
I always liked Multiple Man from X-Men…and this would be a permanent version of his abilities…only no ability to coalesce. It might be nice for them to have some rapport…like Nestor from Battle Beyond The Stars. It allowed the simpler synths to be influenced from abroad however.
 
Unknown, we don't know what differences the Borg-ification process does to the mind, are there incompatibilities?

I seem to recall (and my memory is imperfect :D) that characters like Seven and Icheb still required certain Borg implants to remain in their bodies, whereas others who had been assimilated for brief periods (Picard, Janeway, Tuvok and B'elanna) didn't seem to have that issue. It seems to partly depend on the length of time they were physically Borg.

There was also the unusual linkup Seven created in the trio of former drones when they were marooned on the planet, though that seemed to be a very unique circumstance.

I always liked Multiple Man from X-Men…and this would be a permanent version of his abilities…only no ability to coalesce. It might be nice for them to have some rapport…like Nestor from Battle Beyond The Stars. It allowed the simpler synths to be influenced from abroad however.

Apocalypse did something like this in the Age of Apocalypse reality (which, as originally written, was a radically altered Earth 616). He modified the genetic structure of Multiple Man to create an army of loyal clones, which placed a tremendous mental strain on the real Madrox. He eventually willed himself to die, destroying the Madri army in the process. I can't recall if other alternate versions of Jamie had similar variations, but some clones of the 616 Multiple Man did develop individual (and sometimes radically different) personalities. They could also be affected by physical conditions like the Legacy Virus, as they would inherit elements of such diseases.

I always did have a soft spot for Nestor. ;)
 
I wish I was Madrox. Remember that quote from Sagan about not having enough time to read all the books in the world? Ha!

By the time I re-unify I might just ascend
 
Imagine what you could do with Non-BiPaB {Bi(Pedaloid & Brachialoid)} Synths that you can make.

What would be in the realm of "fiction and fantasy" could now be made into reality.

One of the designs that I would like to make is Synth Android based on a Centaur's body, but replace the traditional horse tail with a very long Snake tail.

Since the Centaur has the body of a horse, the upper torso of a Human, but with the tail of a snake.

The reason for the Snake-Tail is that the spinal column can be "shared" and they can share vision & sensory data from the Snake Brain to the Human brain and have shared conciousness and the Human Brain can order the Snake Brain on general tasks.

If you had a horse that is 7'2½" ~= 2.1971 meters tall & with a body length of ~= 9'1¼" ~= 2.7732 meters, I would want a Snake tail that is about 10 meters long ~= 32.8' ~= 32'9" from the root on the aft end of the Centaur.

This allows the Centaur Synth to have near 360° Peripheral vision and the super long Snake Tail can be used for all sorts of things including seeing around corners, towing things by using the snake limb as a apendage, reach super tall areas, etc.

The Snake Tail could also be used to reach areas of the Synth Centaur's body that the normal Human or Horse limbs couldn't reach.

With a 10 meter long tail mounted to the tail end of the centaur, all sorts of interesting scenarios could come about.

Of course that is for the tallest of Centaurs w/ Snake Tails, smaller ones will be scaled down proportionately.
 
The big trick seems to be mind transfer. UFP science can easily create all sorts of bodies, including androids and clones and whatnot - but it takes Sargon's own magic for him to change his home address from Sphere to Android, and an indecipherable alien machine to make Kirk and Lester swap bodies, or for even a chunk of Kirk's mind to start operating a recently spun android body.

Ira Graves struggled with mind transfer in full view of the scientific community, and ultimately failed. So what the Advanced Synths do with Picard and the as such mundane golem is a giant leap forward for those accustomed to UFP services.

The Advanced Synths aren't exactly UFP, nor are they part of the scientific community. Gaining access to their secrets, which may surpass those of A.I.Soong himself, might be quite the trick: never mind how to transfer one's mind to a golem when you can't figure out how to force an Advanced Synth to give a piece of its mind.

The Advanced Synths did appear humanlike enough to succumb to schemes of bribery and blackmail, though. So their secrets could be made available through traditional means, rather than via some high-tech hookup. And if they start cooperating with heroes or villains, all sorts of hell may break loose: golems and mind transfers are unlikely to be the only rabbit in their hats.

Timo Saloniemi
 
[QUOTE="Dryson, post: 13800230, member: 61282"
Could Synth Cloning return the consciousness of an X-B to a non-implant body that would then age naturally?[/QUOTE]

Might depend on the source of the cloned cells. Even as far back as BoBW, Crusher noted that the Borg implants were changing Picard's DNA around them. It's possible if he'd remained a Borg longer, the changes to his DNA would permeate his cells and any clone created from them would be reliant on at least some implants (as Seven and Icheb were).
 
The big trick seems to be mind transfer. UFP science can easily create all sorts of bodies, including androids and clones and whatnot - but it takes Sargon's own magic for him to change his home address from Sphere to Android, and an indecipherable alien machine to make Kirk and Lester swap bodies, or for even a chunk of Kirk's mind to start operating a recently spun android body.

Ira Graves struggled with mind transfer in full view of the scientific community, and ultimately failed. So what the Advanced Synths do with Picard and the as such mundane golem is a giant leap forward for those accustomed to UFP services.

The Advanced Synths aren't exactly UFP, nor are they part of the scientific community. Gaining access to their secrets, which may surpass those of A.I.Soong himself, might be quite the trick: never mind how to transfer one's mind to a golem when you can't figure out how to force an Advanced Synth to give a piece of its mind.

The Advanced Synths did appear humanlike enough to succumb to schemes of bribery and blackmail, though. So their secrets could be made available through traditional means, rather than via some high-tech hookup. And if they start cooperating with heroes or villains, all sorts of hell may break loose: golems and mind transfers are unlikely to be the only rabbit in their hats.

Timo Saloniemi

If I'm not mistaken, we have had several occurrances of UFP (dating back to TOS) using the technology to transfer a biological mind into a machine (not make a copy).

Funny you should mention Ira Graves... his mind transfer did work in fact. The only issue was he did it by transferring himself into Data which suppressed his personality.

Had he transferred himself into a newly made android body, he'd probably be fine. Nothing to do about his jelaousy though, that's his own behavior. Being in an android body, he wasn't particularly aware of how much stronger he was... but in the end he did the right thing... it was still him.

At any rate, if the advanced synths are willing to work with the UFP to create more synthetic bodies, then transferring of the mind into a synth body would be simple.
Technically also, those androids were a product of Soong's brother and Maddox... and he worked with Jurati to transfer Picard's consciousness from his brain into the golem (which seemed like a simple procedure)... so its basically pre-existing knowledge already... and they are both UFP citizens by default.

UFP has the resources to upscale creation of advanced synth bodies for those who might want them and also increase the synts population too en mass... Soong and Jurati would simply need to teach the technique of transferring the mind to the machine to others... but I suspect that this particular bit wasn't an issue for UFP at this stage... its was the creation of a biological synth that eluded Federation science for the most part, and was something Bruce Maddox, Jurati and Soong did together. Well, Jurati helped of course, but Maddox and Soong finished the project after her departure.
 
If I'm not mistaken, we have had several occurrances of UFP (dating back to TOS) using the technology to transfer a biological mind into a machine (not make a copy).

I can't recall such an occurrence. UFP citizens in TOS made use of alien machinery to achieve the transfer, but mainstream UFP science (or even Spock!) had trouble swallowing the concept, let alone comprehending the execution or the technology.

Funny you should mention Ira Graves... his mind transfer did work in fact. The only issue was he did it by transferring himself into Data which suppressed his personality. Had he transferred himself into a newly made android body, he'd probably be fine.

Hmh? Graves was himself while in Data, and was reduced to dull lines of text while in the E-D computer. I doubt his transfer trick would have worked without Data - that is, it perhaps would have turned him into those lines of text all right, but Graves himself would have counted that as a failure.

Graves and Soong were competitors. With both now dead-after-a-fashion, one living in a computer and the other through apparent clones, the two minds might finally join forces and figure out working mind transfer. Which seems to be exactly what A.I. Soong achieved, even if we don't know if he ripped off Graves to achieve it.

At any rate, if the advanced synths are willing to work with the UFP to create more synthetic bodies, then transferring of the mind into a synth body would be simple.

I still see it the exact opposite way. Bodies are trivial, so much in fact that Data is always dismissed as a trinket, valuable only in the sense of his rarity, and clones are pests one needs to get rid of. Mind transfer is the big trick requiring extra-UFP expertise.

With said expertise, though, it probably would be simple. Kirk and Lester were a bit confused after the Camus II treatment, and Kirk wasn't quite himself when implanted to a copy at Exo III, and technically the jury is still out on Picard, but all these techniques do exist, and presumably were intended to work perfectly and to give true longevity or other body-swap benefits.

The real hurdles would no doubt be legal. The UFP and its assorted offshoots can do clones just fine - but cloning is a taboo and a problem, not a solution. Android bodies can be churned out at will, and positronic brains plugged in now that Soong's patent has de facto expired - but Synths are mass murderers and will probably still be shot at sight for decades to come, the lynching also extending to Advanced Synths because "they're all the same".

And is longevity even allowed? Folks in the 23th century are supposed "not to fear death". If some do, will they be put to death for their offense? Will anything lesser do for enforcing such an alien worldview?

Timo Saloniemi
 
I think what Deks means is that Graves' transfer would work with a blank positronic matrix, even if it didn't fully work with the E-D computer (which is not positronic). However, at the time (and even by the end of TNG), no-one was able to create a stable positronic brain other than Soong (though the EMH did have some positronic components). In fact, Soong's "synaptic scanning technique" used to create android Juliana might actually BE Graves' method!

However, the fact that in DS9 Bareil had half of his brain replaced with positronic components but "replacing the other half would be the same as killing him" might be read as "we still can't maintain the personality even if we can copy the memories".
 
But what are the societal ramifications of everybody who could've died, have their mind transferred into a Synth body?

Effectively immortalizing many who could've died from natural causes and letting them live on.

What if they didn't want a Synth Body, but wanted to be a brain in a Network Center that have access to remote holographic bodies?
 
I think what Deks means is that Graves' transfer would work with a blank positronic matrix, even if it didn't fully work with the E-D computer (which is not positronic). However, at the time (and even by the end of TNG), no-one was able to create a stable positronic brain other than Soong (though the EMH did have some positronic components). In fact, Soong's "synaptic scanning technique" used to create android Juliana might actually BE Graves' method!

However, the fact that in DS9 Bareil had half of his brain replaced with positronic components but "replacing the other half would be the same as killing him" might be read as "we still can't maintain the personality even if we can copy the memories".

DS9 is not too reliable source because a LOT of the technology UFP used was dumbed down as the series went on for 'drama effect'.
But also, Bashir wasn't entirely wrong... if you just replaced half of his brain with a positronic component without trying to transfer his mind into it, then yes, what was left of Bareil wouldn't be him.
With half his brain already dead, he was already a goner - it was no longer him at that state... or at least a good portion of him was gone already with half his brain gone.

If they tried replacing his brain while it was still in his healthy state by transferring his consciousness into a positronic matrix first, then that might have been different... but Bashir wasn't at that stage when he started the treatments (and the outlook was initially good)... it was the psychological strain from dealing with Kai Winn and advising her that pushed Bareil into his perilous condition which resulted in half his brain dying.

Also, the technology for mind-transfer was already there... considering the fact that Bashir and O'Brien went into the mind of that dying Section 31 operative (forgot his name) to find a cure for Odo.
So, the technology to transfer the consciousness wasn't the problem... finding a suitable place to keep the consciousness from degrading was (and I suspect a holographic matrix like the one Zimmerman created and the one the ENT-D made in the case of Moriarty would have done the job - its just no one necessarily THOUGHT of doing it - Bashir was knowledgeable, but its also possible he never read the reports about Moriarty and didn't even consider using an EMH before Zimmerman paid him a visit on Ds9).

As for Ira Graves... What I meant was that his mind-transfer DID work initially... the problem was when he did it, he transferred himself into Data, which also suppressed Data's own personality.
It could have created a psychological strain which Ira wasn't accustomed to because perhaps on some level he had to supress Data's personality (similar to what happened when Kes was possessed by Tieran... he had to devote a lot of mental effort to keep himself dominant... and he was losing).

Ira Graves also had 0 emotional support after the transition and had an excessive personality which resulted in him manifesting feelings of rage and jelaousy which he didn't know how to properly control while using Data's android body and abilities (possibly because Data himself was incapable of emotion at the time and it was a new body experience for Ira Graves... the combination of both could have created a problem for Ira - but its possible this would have been manageable if he actually transferred his consciousness into a brand new Android body instead which had no personality to begin with but was an empty vessel to be occupied by a consciousness and also had some counselling support to help him with the transition).

But yes, transferring himself eventually into ENT-D resulted only in his knowledge remaining... his consciousness on the other hand did not survive that process.
Maybe if he tried a hologram instead? But this was before Moriarty's creation, so the ENT-D crew might not have known that particular option could have been viable in the first place.

Otherwise, UFP could effectively allow people mind-transfers from a biological body into say a holographic one without even needing an android body (with limitation to areas that support holo emitters - and in the 24th century, those would be plenty - stations, ships, holodecks, being transmitted instantly from say Earth to anywhere else in UFP space or beyond using the MIDAS array).

The Doctor did it with Denara Pel in the Delta Quadrant after all - but that was a temporary measure which still depended on her biological body somewhat because there was no intent on keeping her in a holographic form permanently (and he used a standard hologram no less which he made from scratch using verbal computer interface).
 
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But what are the societal ramifications of everybody who could've died, have their mind transferred into a Synth body?

Effectively immortalizing many who could've died from natural causes and letting them live on.

What if they didn't want a Synth Body, but wanted to be a brain in a Network Center that have access to remote holographic bodies?

Or didn't want to be either?

Depending on how frequently backups are made, there could be missing time too.

I mentioned this in another thread, but the webcomic Schlock Mercenary has an EXCELLENT analysis of what it means to live in a society where - not only is everyone possibly immortal (but might lose some time because the backup wasn't up to date) - but could also be copied and thus diverge.

Cases in point - one character mourns her lost husband after they had argued and then he died. She's told he can be rebuilt from backups but "that's my husband from yesterday.... I want the one who apologised to me."

And a character who isn't sure he would have done the same thing his pre-death self (a few hours past the backup) did i.e. a heroic sacrifice and is ashamed he might not live up to that ideal again.

That same character is also copied and the copy begins a relationship with another copied personality of a different person - there's NO sign prior to that that the two were attracted to each other (and the originals never hook up) - if anything, the original "she" is more likely to want to date "his" FATHER.
 
The "could you transfer to a hologram?" question is a good one - the Doctor DID manage to put Denara Pel to a holo-body but was that just her organic brain doing a full sensory VR into the hologram whilst her organic stimuli were blocked, or an actual transfer?
 
The "could you transfer to a hologram?" question is a good one - the Doctor DID manage to put Denara Pel to a holo-body but was that just her organic brain doing a full sensory VR into the hologram whilst her organic stimuli were blocked, or an actual transfer?
Closer to "Ghost in the Shell" where your mind is uploaded to a set of computers / servers and you can remote into any Holographic Body you want.

So instead of being locked into a Android/Synth body, you can remote access into any Holographic Body that you wish and change your form as you please.

That would be the closest a former traditional human could experience to being a "Shape-Shifter".

With "The Doctor's" Mobile Holographic Emitter technology deciphered and mass produced, StarFleet/UFP can create new Mobile Emitters that are attached to a Hockey Puck sized body with it's own built in mini anti-grav unit, Holo Emitters, Tri-Corder, Communicators, Shields, built in Type-1 Phasers, etc.

You can literally fly around, and change shape to fit whatever person, item, object, animal you want.

As long as said object/creature/item is larger than a Hockey Puck.
 
For a gonzo take, one can always watch (or, heaven forbid, read!) Altered Carbon.

I think we should differentiate between using tech to do telepathy and using tech to do mind transfer. Even katras aren't normally valid mind transfer means: they appear to be more like diaries or vlogs (mlogs?), and using them for resurrection calls for a living copy of the original, in the one case we are aware of. Odds are that a mere available body, perhaps a braindead patient, would not have sufficed, or else the procedure would be less a legend and more a commercial item.

As said, "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" falls short of creating a true Kirk duplicate, even if ever-so-slightly; "Turnabout Intruder" leaves the transferred minds confused. But they are both about 99% there, while "Extreme Measures" isn't even a solid attempt at 10%. Graves' work really is without UFP precedent, and supposedly never was intended to feature positronics, at least not publicly - Graves could never admit to using Soong's work and discrediting the delicious discrediting.

Moriarty can rather effortlessly move between platforms, but is he a mind? He's a consciousness, but many a computer program would be, including Vic. Those are built for a purpose, though, and might be mere facades, with the appearance of a mind but with a low percentage of the actually required contents, whatever those are.

Which makes one wonder whether Denara Pel was a mind after the transfer, or a mere facade. I mean, she "came back to her body" supposedly whole, but it's also possible and indeed likely that she never left - the EMH doesn't describe any erasing procedures in addition to his copy-pasting one, merely the impending degradation of the corporeal mind. The consciousness manifesting as the hologram could have been but a fragment of that mind (or more likely, just a projection of one still residing elsewhere), and not a valid means of mind transfer for longevity purposes. Even if the projection didn't inherently decay, that is.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I think I’ve posted the following video before but it sorta illustrates part of the issue:

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As of this week’s “Discovery” though:

The gang is building Gray a new synth body based on the Soong model. They bring up the whole immortality issue, but it seems that while people of the time tried, the transference success rate was so low that it was ultimately abandoned. Graves, Julianna Tainer and Picard seem to suggest otherwise, though… I sense a coverup on the level of Trill symbiotes could be explored.

It also connotes that the Federation has long since gotten over its hang ups regarding synths in the first place, but I’m guessing the forthcoming episodes of “Picard” will figure this out for us.

Mark
 
What if there is no cover-up like the Trill Symbiotes?

What if the percent of success is really that low? There has only been a handful of cases shown to work so far transferring the conciousness from the original biological mind to a new synthetic mind.

Let's say ≤ 9% of those who tried to transfer their conciousness from their original body (assuming they're in a near death or near 'End of Life' situation like JLP) into the new Synth body.

Let's make some assumptions, the UFP, during the late 24th century has ≥ 1 Trillion citizens amongst it's ≥ 150 UFP members of the UFP spread over 8,000 ly in 2373.

Star Trek: Picard takes place in 2399, so it's only ~26 years after 2373.

That's ≥ 6,666,666,666 ⅔ citizens per UFP member race when averaged out. Obviously the #'s won't be distributed evenly IRL, but for the sake of averages, it's easier to understand.

Earth's Global Population has exceeded 7.9 billion people as of November 2021

Let's hypothetically use 1,000,000 attempts for a nice round number.
Low Success Rates for transferring the Conciousness from a Biological mind to a Synth mind:
@ 9.000% = 90,000 people having a new lease on life
@ 1.000% = 10,000 people having a new lease on life
@ 0.100% = _1,000 people having a new lease on life
@ 0.010% = ___100 people having a new lease on life
@ 0.001% = ____10 people having a new lease on life

At what low rate of success will society have given up on transfering the conciousness of a living person into a new synth body and move on to other fields of research? Ergo relegating the Mind Transfer Science to a niche field of enthusiasts only and most resources going to other fields of research?
 
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