Personally, I don't hold that against Odo. He said "if"... In truth, if Curzon had betrayed his best friend, it would have made him a pretty rotten person. However, he did not do that.
Odo was kind of a jerk in Seasons 1 and 2. Spoilers alert in case
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Personally, I don't hold that against Odo. He said "if"... In truth, if Curzon had betrayed his best friend, it would have made him a pretty rotten person. However, he did not do that.
Given the quote, Odo wasn't necessarily speaking from his own perspective either.
"But treason, plus the murder of his own best friend? Strange business. If those charges are true, (if I were a member of the Tandro family) I'd want to hang Curzon Dax up by his heels myself."
"But treason, plus the murder of his own best friend? Strange business. If those charges are true, (if I were a member of the Tandro family) I'd want to hang Curzon Dax up by his heels myself."
Yes, the serious ones. Though, I think being personable is needed at times in special cases but that is something Odo would not be able to do well, since his understanding of solids outside of Cardassians was limited in the beginning.
Anyway, I agree that Odo may have been even a bit vapid in the earliest seasons. Sometimes it could be funny... sometimes not so much. When I first started watching the show he was my favorite.
Odo is an honest cop who thinks life would be so much simpler if he could be judge, jury, jailer, and if necessary executioner. The Cardassian legal system is a complete sham. Educated Cardassians don't even pretend it's anything more than propaganda and an extension of state power. Odo tells Sisko legal systems come and go, but justice is fundamental.
I think many police officers think this, especially in places that don't require police to be educated in criminal justice. "Come on. I know who the bad guys are. A trial is at best a waste of time and at worst a chance for the perpetrators to get away with it."
I think many police officers think this, especially in places that don't require police to be educated in criminal justice. "Come on. I know who the bad guys are. A trial is at best a waste of time and at worst a chance for the perpetrators to get away with it."
Odo is kinda creepy at times. When the defecting Weyoun tells him that the founders deliberately created the Vorta with weak eyes, good ears but no appreciation for music or art in general, no taste buds to speak of, no sex, plus a termination implant they're supposed to activate when ordered to. Odo calls that, an act of kindness!!! Seriously, what a creep!!!
Odo: "so your slave master only kicks you in the teeth ONCE A DAY!!!! How kind!"
Odo: "so your slave master only kicks you in the teeth ONCE A DAY!!!! How kind!"
^That's not what happens.
WEYOUN: Not at all. The Vorta sense of taste is quite limited. About the only foods we really enjoy are kava nuts and rippleberries.
ODO: Ah. I take it this is also a result of your genetic programming?
WEYOUN: It's the Founders' way of making sure we remember our past. You must know the story of how the Founders created the Vorta?
ODO: No, but I have the feeling you're going to tell me all about it.
WEYOUN: The Vorta used to be quite different from what we are today. We were forest dwellers. Small, timid, ape-like creatures living in hollowed out trees.
ODO: Eating nuts and berries.
WEYOUN: And living in fear of the many predators that would hunt us for food. One day, a wounded changeling came stumbling through the forest fleeing from a mob of angry solids.
ODO: Why were they chasing him?
WEYOUN: What does it matter? Solids have always feared and distrusted shape-shifters, you know that. Well, a family of Vorta hid the changeling from his pursuers. And in return for saving his life, the changeling promised the Vorta that one day we would be transformed into powerful beings. That we would become an important part of a great new empire that would stretch across the Galaxy.
ODO: And the changeling kept his word.
WEYOUN: That's right. Imagine, Odo. My people were once little more than apes, and look at us now. Look at what you've done for us.
ODO: If the story were true, it would at least prove that my people are capable of generosity and kindness.
WEYOUN: Not at all. The Vorta sense of taste is quite limited. About the only foods we really enjoy are kava nuts and rippleberries.
ODO: Ah. I take it this is also a result of your genetic programming?
WEYOUN: It's the Founders' way of making sure we remember our past. You must know the story of how the Founders created the Vorta?
ODO: No, but I have the feeling you're going to tell me all about it.
WEYOUN: The Vorta used to be quite different from what we are today. We were forest dwellers. Small, timid, ape-like creatures living in hollowed out trees.
ODO: Eating nuts and berries.
WEYOUN: And living in fear of the many predators that would hunt us for food. One day, a wounded changeling came stumbling through the forest fleeing from a mob of angry solids.
ODO: Why were they chasing him?
WEYOUN: What does it matter? Solids have always feared and distrusted shape-shifters, you know that. Well, a family of Vorta hid the changeling from his pursuers. And in return for saving his life, the changeling promised the Vorta that one day we would be transformed into powerful beings. That we would become an important part of a great new empire that would stretch across the Galaxy.
ODO: And the changeling kept his word.
WEYOUN: That's right. Imagine, Odo. My people were once little more than apes, and look at us now. Look at what you've done for us.
ODO: If the story were true, it would at least prove that my people are capable of generosity and kindness.
And it doesn't seem creepy to you that they deliberately denied them a sense of taste "to remind them where they came from"? Plus Odo must have known of the other limitations I mentioned as the Vorta had been on the station for several months and he had exchanges with Weyoun on a daily basis. Weyoun stares at a painting for hours unable to decide if he likes it or not.
It doesn't sound fair to require these benevolent overlords to turn everybody into the same sort of superman, with all the superpowers. If a white-hat Founder decided to take charge of the 9th Fleet, say, would it be a good thing or a bad thing if it ordered everybody to report for installation of infrared eyes and a telepathy bone?
Those nut-chewing critters never knew the things you'd want them to know. They aren't really missing out on anything much. To the contrary, istalling a craving for the taste of avocado would be pretty much the same thing as installing a craving for the taste of ketracel-white.
Timo Saloniemi
Those nut-chewing critters never knew the things you'd want them to know. They aren't really missing out on anything much. To the contrary, istalling a craving for the taste of avocado would be pretty much the same thing as installing a craving for the taste of ketracel-white.
Timo Saloniemi
As far as creation legends/myths go, if the worst thing the god does is deny the people a sense of taste, then objectively they may be doing pretty well.
Without a sense of taste, perhaps they'll be less likely to eat apples?
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Not just a sense of taste but also the ability to appreciate music (in spite of having good ears) and arts in general. Plus no sexuality (Weyoun said so himself in a brief exchange with Damar). Basically, they denied them most of the things that make life worth living. Plus see how the female changeling treats Weyoun, threatening to kill him at the drop of a hat. Odo calls that kindness because he's a creep that doesn't understand all human values (although admittedly he understands some) but who in their right minds would say that the founders were kind in creating the Vorta, not me.
If your species starts out as one that lives in constant fear of predators, then being elevated to a species whose greatest concerns are not having a sense of taste, aesthetics or sexuality (which, for all we know, they didn't possess in any case) might still seem like a significant improvement.
Besides, if the Vortas' greatest joy is serving the Founders...and it seems to be...then those restrictions may seem pretty trivial. Especially if they don't fully appreciate what they're missing out on.
Besides, if the Vortas' greatest joy is serving the Founders...and it seems to be...then those restrictions may seem pretty trivial. Especially if they don't fully appreciate what they're missing out on.
So you trade your fear of predators with the fear of a changeling that can order you to kill yourself and activate a clone because she's had a bad day and that at any rate will treat you like crap no matter how much effort you put into pleasing her.
Yeah, they created the perfect slaves. How kind!
Is there any evidence that Vorta constantly fear that Founders will order them to self-terminate? If anything, I suspect most of the time the Vorta are treated the same way we saw the female Changeling treat Weyoun. Largely indifference mixed with condescension and occasional hints of fondness.
Would you argue that the Bajorans are slaves to the Prophets?
Would you argue that the Bajorans are slaves to the Prophets?
I don't see that it's in any way relevant, For one thing, the Bajorans are not at the prophet's beck and call. Some like Ro Laran don't even have much of a "faith".
I am not really fond of that part of DS9 at any rate. Personally I think the less they use the "prophets" the better.
BTW, whose bizarre idea was it to call them prophets?
A "prophet" is not a god he's an intermediary between a god or a divinity of some kind and people but we are to believe that the "prophets" are at the top of the pyramid which IMO doesn't make much sense.
Calling the gods "prophets" makes about as much sense as calling a head of state "subordinate"...
That line sounds like he was explaining how the son felt the way he felt, he wasn't expressing his own sentiment.
Odo is antisocial and stubborn but I wouldn't call him a jerk. He's doing his job to the best of his ability, observing human nature, and having no patience for bureaucratic obstacles.
Odo is antisocial and stubborn but I wouldn't call him a jerk. He's doing his job to the best of his ability, observing human nature, and having no patience for bureaucratic obstacles.
But none of that was in the story to which Odo was responding.
Plus, "human values" is racist, no two ways around it. Take just about any other form of life here on Earth and impose human values on it, and it would cry foul. Despite being capable of some limited level of abstraction, we really are narrow creatures with narrow ideas that don't apply to the way things in the nature are much.
Conversely, nothing the Founders do is even remotely inhuman, alas.
Timo Saloniemi
Conversely, nothing the Founders do is even remotely inhuman, alas.
Timo Saloniemi
I don't agree. Human values are still the best we have as a guide to behaving with one another. No writer is smart enough to invent alien values that would be more humane than our human values. You can only be called racist about existing races, not when it comes to imaginary ones.
As for the founders, they're just as bad if not worse than our nazis when it comes to being humane.
It's not that difficult to imagine types of existence more benevolent than the human one. We are at no loss to recognize our built-in failings: greed, fear, hatred etc. That they manifest in interactions between humans is no reason to limit their dramatic use to interactions between humans, and indeed there's good drama about our cruelty and/or love towards animals or even inanimate objects. And many a good story about how using human values as a guide is an incredibly evil thing to do in general.
On the opposite tack, being nice is being nice, regardless of the surroundings. Hitler was gentle towards his beloved dogs, promoted a healthy lifestyle, and reputedly was charming company in the right company. Nothing should stop us from classifying the acts of kindness conducted by our designated space Nazis as acts of kindness. And being kind to the Vorta would seem to count.
I mean, you generally aren't considered cruel if you just pet your dog, instead of teaching it algebra or feeding it entrecote. Or instead of letting it live a life of doglike freedom. Although of course you could be.
Timo Saloniemi
On the opposite tack, being nice is being nice, regardless of the surroundings. Hitler was gentle towards his beloved dogs, promoted a healthy lifestyle, and reputedly was charming company in the right company. Nothing should stop us from classifying the acts of kindness conducted by our designated space Nazis as acts of kindness. And being kind to the Vorta would seem to count.
I mean, you generally aren't considered cruel if you just pet your dog, instead of teaching it algebra or feeding it entrecote. Or instead of letting it live a life of doglike freedom. Although of course you could be.
Timo Saloniemi
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