Odo was kind of a jerk in Seasons 1 and 2. Spoilers alert in case

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by urrutiap, Mar 22, 2021.

  1. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    It's not that difficult to imagine types of existence more benevolent than the human one. We are at no loss to recognize our built-in failings: greed, fear, hatred etc. That they manifest in interactions between humans is no reason to limit their dramatic use to interactions between humans, and indeed there's good drama about our cruelty and/or love towards animals or even inanimate objects. And many a good story about how using human values as a guide is an incredibly evil thing to do in general.

    On the opposite tack, being nice is being nice, regardless of the surroundings. Hitler was gentle towards his beloved dogs, promoted a healthy lifestyle, and reputedly was charming company in the right company. Nothing should stop us from classifying the acts of kindness conducted by our designated space Nazis as acts of kindness. And being kind to the Vorta would seem to count.

    I mean, you generally aren't considered cruel if you just pet your dog, instead of teaching it algebra or feeding it entrecote. Or instead of letting it live a life of doglike freedom. Although of course you could be.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
    kkt likes this.
  2. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2021
    But the point is the changelings weren't kind in the least. They treated the Vorta like slaves. The female founder (that never got a name) ordered an entire team of Vorta to kill themselves and activate their clones "because that might speed things up". I can't decide which is worse, actually, the founders, the borg or the vidian phage!!! After millennia of torturing, destroying, infecting entire worlds, the writers decided to turn the founders into good guys... Well, that's StarTrek, I guess.
     
  3. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    We have no way of knowing how the Founders of the "present" compare to the Founders of the past though.
     
  4. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2021
    We know that they infected a planet with an incurable plague two hundred years before though. If that's not bad enough for you then I don't know what will.
     
  5. ThreeEdgedSword

    ThreeEdgedSword Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2020
    Location:
    Sheer Fucking Hubris
    Not to attack your larger point, but judging from pictures I saw, with him and his dog, I doubt that. The German Sheperd displayed many signs of fear.

    As for the Founders, I always thought their attitude was shaped during those centuries of being persecuted and hunted as "changelings"... a mixture of revenge and doing everything you can to never be the prey again, so you'll always be the predator.

    As for Odo, he had a shitty "childhood", being an outcast and a lab rat. The former for much longer than his childhood. I don't blame him one bit for his curmudgeonness.
     
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    If they've existed for millions of years, then I wouldn't judge whether they're racially capable of goodness based solely on the most recent two hundred.
     
  7. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2021
    WHAT...?!?!?!?!:eek::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:
     
  8. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2021
    Sorry but with that kind of excuse you don't ever blame anyone for anything.

    I mean: "

    Prosecutor: He killed twelve people!!!

    Defense Lawyer: But his parents never gave him a toy!!!

    :rolleyes:

    "
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  9. ThreeEdgedSword

    ThreeEdgedSword Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2020
    Location:
    Sheer Fucking Hubris
    There's a difference between a description and making excuses.
     
  10. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2021
    Not in this case. You used your "description" to excuse the founders and Odo's subsequent behavior. That's what making excuses means.
     
  11. ThreeEdgedSword

    ThreeEdgedSword Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2020
    Location:
    Sheer Fucking Hubris
    Please stop putting words in my mouth.

    I definitely do make excuses for Odo, not for the founders.
     
  12. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2021
    I did not put words in your mouth. I just commented on your words as they appear to me.

    How does that even remotely qualify as "putting words in your mouth"?

    We don't seem to be speaking the same language. Maybe the UT is out of sync or something...
     
  13. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Location:
    JirinPanthosa
    It's true the Founders cruelty came from a history of being tormented by solids, but that doesn't morally justify doing it past the point that was necessary for self defense.
     
  14. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2021
    Yes, there's always a reason. For instance, abusers are often people who've been abused in their childhood but that doesn't mean that we should excuse them. Otherwise, it will never stop!!!
     
  15. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Location:
    JirinPanthosa
    Moral relativity has its limits. If anything suggesting non-human races can't be expected to develop the idea that murder is wrong is racist. Racism by lowered expectations.
     
  16. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2021

    Yes, you have to low your expectations lower than rock-bottom not to think that the founders are mass-murdering monsters.