Clear as day Sharon is the Power Broker.
Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion
- Thread starter Turtletrekker
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I have three minor questions from this episode, and the more I think about them the more I wonder if they aren't connected. So even though I'm probably way off base, let's lay it out. Spoiler code just for length.
Sharon tells her driver that they have a big problem. Then amends it to a couple of problems. Karli? And Zemo? As best as I can tell, it fits all the available evidence thus far. Though it explodes at the drop of a hat and relies on connections that I might just be imagining.
How does Karli find out that Nagel is dead?
Why does Sharon freak out when Nagel is killed?
Why on earth does Karli call Nagel to try and save her mentor/friend?
Let's start with that last one. Why call Nagel? You stole from his boss, you've basically made off with his life's work. Why is he going to help you? Maybe she offered to give some of the serum back? But calling anybody associated with the PB when you're on the run from him seems like suicide to me. To me, this implies a connection between Karli and Nagel that we haven't been shown yet. Some reason why she thought he might help her, in spite of her thievery.
What about Sharon's reaction to Nagel's death? At first blush she's just shocked that Zemo has killed an unarmed man that they were interrogating and was being helpful. But her response is nearer to horror than shock. "What have you done?!" is her line. This, from the woman who just killed a bunch of bounty hunters outside. She's not above merc'ing some dudes. Why does this one get a reaction? To me, this implies, perhaps, a connection between Sharon and Nagel that we haven't been shown yet. Now, maybe she's the Power Broker. That WOULD explain why she was so aggrieved, as her cash cow just got offed. But what else could it be?
I posted above that I think Sharon is undercover. So deep that not even other government agencies know what she's up to, just her immediate contacts. Could Nagel be a CIA (or whoever) plant in the PB's organization? Why would you send in the guy who can actually make the serum? Assuming he actually can, since he doesn't seem able to replicate it now that Karli has stolen it...
So I have this idea. Sharon is slowly putting together PB's organization. They send in Nagel to get an inside look. He gives over 20 vials of the serum, but you really don't want that in the PB's hands, do you? So... maybe have somebody steal it? Oh, look, that's exactly what happened! So what if the CIA (or whoever) has also infiltrated the Flag Smashers? Even at the leadership level? Like, say, Karli Morgenthau?
That might explain how she knows about Nagel's death. If she learned it from her contacts who would have gotten Sharon's report. But it also potentially deepens the earlier scene where Sam tries to recruit Sharon to their cause. She tries to warn them off, she isn't interested. Until Sam tells her that the Flag Smashers have TAKEN the serum. It's the fact that they have made themselves super soldiers that gets Sharon's attention. And maybe that's just because super soldiers are a terrifying possibility. Or maybe it's because Karli has gone beyond her mandate.
What if Karli is a CIA (or whoever) plant who has gone native? Assume her backstory, like Sharon's, has been mostly kept to real events that she's using to mask a really convincing cover ID. She's probably been sympathetic to their aims all along, but now maybe she's bought in. She not only steals the serum, she convinces them to actually use it and become super soldiers. To escalate their actions. And now that she knows she is the last person with the serum on earth, she sees an opportunity to go even bigger, and escalates to violence that can't go unnoticed.
Why does Sharon freak out when Nagel is killed?
Why on earth does Karli call Nagel to try and save her mentor/friend?
Let's start with that last one. Why call Nagel? You stole from his boss, you've basically made off with his life's work. Why is he going to help you? Maybe she offered to give some of the serum back? But calling anybody associated with the PB when you're on the run from him seems like suicide to me. To me, this implies a connection between Karli and Nagel that we haven't been shown yet. Some reason why she thought he might help her, in spite of her thievery.
What about Sharon's reaction to Nagel's death? At first blush she's just shocked that Zemo has killed an unarmed man that they were interrogating and was being helpful. But her response is nearer to horror than shock. "What have you done?!" is her line. This, from the woman who just killed a bunch of bounty hunters outside. She's not above merc'ing some dudes. Why does this one get a reaction? To me, this implies, perhaps, a connection between Sharon and Nagel that we haven't been shown yet. Now, maybe she's the Power Broker. That WOULD explain why she was so aggrieved, as her cash cow just got offed. But what else could it be?
I posted above that I think Sharon is undercover. So deep that not even other government agencies know what she's up to, just her immediate contacts. Could Nagel be a CIA (or whoever) plant in the PB's organization? Why would you send in the guy who can actually make the serum? Assuming he actually can, since he doesn't seem able to replicate it now that Karli has stolen it...
So I have this idea. Sharon is slowly putting together PB's organization. They send in Nagel to get an inside look. He gives over 20 vials of the serum, but you really don't want that in the PB's hands, do you? So... maybe have somebody steal it? Oh, look, that's exactly what happened! So what if the CIA (or whoever) has also infiltrated the Flag Smashers? Even at the leadership level? Like, say, Karli Morgenthau?
That might explain how she knows about Nagel's death. If she learned it from her contacts who would have gotten Sharon's report. But it also potentially deepens the earlier scene where Sam tries to recruit Sharon to their cause. She tries to warn them off, she isn't interested. Until Sam tells her that the Flag Smashers have TAKEN the serum. It's the fact that they have made themselves super soldiers that gets Sharon's attention. And maybe that's just because super soldiers are a terrifying possibility. Or maybe it's because Karli has gone beyond her mandate.
What if Karli is a CIA (or whoever) plant who has gone native? Assume her backstory, like Sharon's, has been mostly kept to real events that she's using to mask a really convincing cover ID. She's probably been sympathetic to their aims all along, but now maybe she's bought in. She not only steals the serum, she convinces them to actually use it and become super soldiers. To escalate their actions. And now that she knows she is the last person with the serum on earth, she sees an opportunity to go even bigger, and escalates to violence that can't go unnoticed.
Sharon tells her driver that they have a big problem. Then amends it to a couple of problems. Karli? And Zemo? As best as I can tell, it fits all the available evidence thus far. Though it explodes at the drop of a hat and relies on connections that I might just be imagining.
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So how did Cap return then? He went to an alternate timeline to return the stones. It's alternate because Thanos is dead. Loki is still alive. Things are changed. They explained it in the movie. If you change something in the past it creates a new timeline. Those were the rules they made.
Far from Home takes place after F&WS I believe.
An alternate timeline is only formed when a timestone is remove, and then the alternate timeline ceases to exist when the stone is returned. Loki has a time stone that was never returned.
Which means that he didn't return one of the stones for a long time?
You can't go to your own past.
You can't go to any past, considering the space stone was still in New York in 2012, after Cap stole it from that Army Base in 1970.
An alternate timeline is created always.
The Ancient one was saying that the time stone, and in fact all the infinity stones are a defense system against extra dimension assholes. It's like taking all the guns from Texas.
The Cap we met at the end of End Game can't be "our" Captain America, because he can't travel to his own past. The timeline that we have been watching is not the original Timeline. Old Cap is from an older universe, and he created the MCU to hang out with Peggy in. Our Captain America must have created another new Marvel Universe to Hang out with another copy of Peggy, but that's another universe, and we can't see it from where we are sitting.
This isn't time travel.
It's Sliding. (Remember the tv show Sliders?)
Cap couldn't return to any of the timelines where they took the stones, because he can't return to his own past, or anyone else's past. The Ancient One never got her stone back. But Steve did create another New York 2012 where a new Ancient one who thought that she was the other Ancient one, did get the other Ancient One's stone back.
The upcoming "What if...?" series is going to disagree with you on that.
That scene is one of the most convoluted, Plot Convenient explanations ever committed to film--and because the writers knew audiences with about as much "knowledge" about time travel as they did (i.e. science fiction / pop culture references) would question what Hulk said, they have him shoot down all other fictional ideas of time travel, which--in all honestly--do not make less sense than the Hulk's theory.
You mean infinity stone. And timelines only merge when the stones are retuned as if they never left, which they failed to do. Also Loki's Infinity stone is native to his universe (the avengers never removed and returned it) so his having it has no impact on timelines merging.
Removing an infinity stone is not the only thing that will create an alternate timeline. The point was that removing the stones would mean that this particular universe would not be able to defend itself against any potential threats, for example, Dormammu, if the time stone is not returned. That's what the Ancient One means and Hulk reassures her that they will return the stones. At this point nobody is aware that the timelines they visit will be altered but then Loki escapes, Thanos becomes aware of what's going on and gets killed.
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Nah, it fits. It's up there with Back to the Futures' explanations.
Anywho, would we rate Zemo more as MCU Batman or MCU Lex Luthor?
His explanation as to why he is against Super-Soldiers (Superheroes in general) remind me of Lex, but he's a rich guy with a butler so I get Batman vibes too.
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Lex is a rich guy, I'm sure with a butler too. To me, Zemo is more coming across as a Bond villain.
Mercy as a Robot should be able to do anything a butler would.
Unless he respects her too much to make her polish silverware, and open doors?
But why would he respect her, if he wasn't sleeping with her?
It doesn't fit because one of the Russo's insists that at the end that that is their Cap who went back and stayed back, which breaks the damn rule they made.
Of course we can just pretend that they didn't say that, or that word of god canon is bullshit.
Unless he respects her too much to make her polish silverware, and open doors?
But why would he respect her, if he wasn't sleeping with her?
It doesn't fit because one of the Russo's insists that at the end that that is their Cap who went back and stayed back, which breaks the damn rule they made.
Of course we can just pretend that they didn't say that, or that word of god canon is bullshit.
They created several new realities, which are now safe, as they have all their stones, but will not merge back into the original timeline as there are too many changes.
2012 has Loki on the loose with the Space Stone, and the mind stone is no longer in the scepter.
I'd say 2013 Asguard might merge but I don't see any way for Steve to inject the Aether back into Jane, nor would he want to, so "The Dark World" plays out differently.
2014 is now missing Thanos and all his forces. This is a nice reality to live in.
1970 has nothing that happens that conflicts with the MCU we saw so I think it merged back in and Stark was able to talk to his "real" father.
2012 has Loki on the loose with the Space Stone, and the mind stone is no longer in the scepter.
I'd say 2013 Asguard might merge but I don't see any way for Steve to inject the Aether back into Jane, nor would he want to, so "The Dark World" plays out differently.
2014 is now missing Thanos and all his forces. This is a nice reality to live in.
1970 has nothing that happens that conflicts with the MCU we saw so I think it merged back in and Stark was able to talk to his "real" father.
The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards Sharon being undercover and working for Fury. That, or she's not even Sharon but a Skrull posing as her...which are not mutually exclusive ideas.
Also, isn't Madripoor very much a mutant associated place in the comics? What if The Power Broker is a mutant that specialises in giving or transferring powers to others? What if It's Mr. Sinister? Or Rogue?
Also, isn't Madripoor very much a mutant associated place in the comics? What if The Power Broker is a mutant that specialises in giving or transferring powers to others? What if It's Mr. Sinister? Or Rogue?
Without an infity stone to remove he has nothing to split the timeline. Everything he does causes the MCU to unfold as we saw. Hulk doesn't know this, but it can be inferred from the Ancient Ones explanation.
Well....isn't Luthor also kind of like a Bond villain too?
Really, he's coming across as what Snyder wanted DCEU Luthor to be. Zemo even has DCEU Luthor's Anti-Super motivation, but executed much better.
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