There are some movies that are now considered masterpieces that got very bad reviews when they were released:
"Vertigo", "The Shining", "A Fistful Of Dollars"... to name a few.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x13 - "That Hope Is You, Part 2"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
There are some movies that are now considered masterpieces that got very bad reviews when they were released:
"Vertigo", "The Shining", "A Fistful Of Dollars"... to name a few.
I don't know how much Jammer's Reviews will help you in general. Most of his ratings for DSC are 2 stars, 2.5 stars, and 3 stars. This episode was the first 1.5 he gave for Disco and is the episode of DSC that he's given below two stars overall.
And even then, while 1.5 is something he'd consider "bad", it's still not what he'd consider "The Worst!" There are many instances of 1-star reviews he's given episodes of other series. Even half-star and zero-star reviews. Therefore, your saying "THIS IS THE WORST EVER!" is hyperbole, if you're using him as one of your benchmarks.
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IMDB gives "That Hope Is You, Part 2" a 6.4 out of 10. "Mediocre" not "The worst of the worst of the worst!" Considering lots of people either love DSC or hate it, I think The Law Of Averages is in play. (link)
Rotten Tomatoes gives "That Hope Is You, Part 2" a 42%. Not good at all, but hardly The Worst. (link)
The Metacritic has not yet given a score. (link)
And for the Hell of it, here are the episodes that Jammer gives one star or less. Some real "classics" in here. Are you ready? Here we go...
"The Gamesters of Triskelion" (TOS) - 1 star
"The Omega Glory" (TOS) - 1 star
"Spock's Brain" (TOS) - 0.5 stars
"And the Children Shall Lead" (TOS) - 0.5 stars
"That Which Survives" (TOS) - 1 star
"The Way to Eden" (TOS) - ZERO STARS!!!
"Code of Honor" (TNG) - 0.5 stars
"Justice" (TNG) - 1 star
"Angel One" (TNG) - 1 star
"When the Bough Breaks" (TNG) - 1 star
"The Royale" (TNG) - 1 star
"Manhunt" (TNG) - 1 star
"Shades of Grey" (TNG) - ZERO STARS!!!
"Devil's Due" (TNG) - 1 star
"Qpid" (TNG) - 1 star
"Cost of Living" (TNG) - 1 star
"Aquiel" (TNG) - 1 star
"Sub Rosa" (TNG) - 0.5 stars
"Masks" (TNG) - 1 star
"Genesis" (TNG) - 1 star
"Fascination" (DS9) - 1 star
"The Muse" (DS9) - 1 star
"Let He Who Is Without Sin" (DS9) - ZERO STARS!!!
"Profit and Lace" (DS9) - ZERO STARS!!!
"The Emperor's New Cloak" (DS9) - 1 star
"Twisted" (VOY) - 1 star
"Threshold" (VOY) - ZERO STARS!!!
"Favorite Son" (VOY) - 1 star
"Demon" (VOY) - 0.5 stars
"The Disease" (VOY) - 1 star
"Spirit Folk" (VOY) - 1 star
"A Night in Sickbay" (ENT) - 1 star
"Precious Cargo" (ENT) - ZERO STARS!!!
"Bound" (ENT) - 1 star
There you go. Star Trek's Hall of Shame, according to Jammer. All the episodes his ratings seem to suggest he thinks are worse.
"But, but... " But nothing.
Don't mention other sources unless you're prepared to actually cite them. Don't say something unless you can actually back it up. Otherwise, it's just trash-talking.
Rotten Tomatoes gives "That Hope Is You, Part 2" a 42%. Not good at all, but hardly The Worst. (link)
The Metacritic has not yet given a score. (link)
And for the Hell of it, here are the episodes that Jammer gives one star or less. Some real "classics" in here. Are you ready? Here we go...
"The Gamesters of Triskelion" (TOS) - 1 star
"The Omega Glory" (TOS) - 1 star
"Spock's Brain" (TOS) - 0.5 stars
"And the Children Shall Lead" (TOS) - 0.5 stars
"That Which Survives" (TOS) - 1 star
"The Way to Eden" (TOS) - ZERO STARS!!!
"Code of Honor" (TNG) - 0.5 stars
"Justice" (TNG) - 1 star
"Angel One" (TNG) - 1 star
"When the Bough Breaks" (TNG) - 1 star
"The Royale" (TNG) - 1 star
"Manhunt" (TNG) - 1 star
"Shades of Grey" (TNG) - ZERO STARS!!!
"Devil's Due" (TNG) - 1 star
"Qpid" (TNG) - 1 star
"Cost of Living" (TNG) - 1 star
"Aquiel" (TNG) - 1 star
"Sub Rosa" (TNG) - 0.5 stars
"Masks" (TNG) - 1 star
"Genesis" (TNG) - 1 star
"Fascination" (DS9) - 1 star
"The Muse" (DS9) - 1 star
"Let He Who Is Without Sin" (DS9) - ZERO STARS!!!
"Profit and Lace" (DS9) - ZERO STARS!!!
"The Emperor's New Cloak" (DS9) - 1 star
"Twisted" (VOY) - 1 star
"Threshold" (VOY) - ZERO STARS!!!
"Favorite Son" (VOY) - 1 star
"Demon" (VOY) - 0.5 stars
"The Disease" (VOY) - 1 star
"Spirit Folk" (VOY) - 1 star
"A Night in Sickbay" (ENT) - 1 star
"Precious Cargo" (ENT) - ZERO STARS!!!
"Bound" (ENT) - 1 star
There you go. Star Trek's Hall of Shame, according to Jammer. All the episodes his ratings seem to suggest he thinks are worse.
"But, but... " But nothing.
Don't mention other sources unless you're prepared to actually cite them. Don't say something unless you can actually back it up. Otherwise, it's just trash-talking.
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"Precious Cargo(ENT)" has one redeeming quality. It gave us the TrekBBS nickname "Princess Fishstick" for Padma Lakshmi. 
IMDb has those with a hate campaign rushing in with 1 stars reviews without having watched it. ‘Pushing it’ certainly is one of describing the comment regarding neutrality comment, though I’d probably have called it something else.
Anyway... I’m probably going to watch the last few episodes again this week, then I’ll be moving on to a Picard rewatch and moving on from Discovery.
Anyway... I’m probably going to watch the last few episodes again this week, then I’ll be moving on to a Picard rewatch and moving on from Discovery.
Those are the easy ones. It's doesn't even have The Alternative Factor on.
There's no accounting for Jammer's taste.
"The Gamesters of Triskelion(TOS)" and "The Royale(TNG)" are not one-star episodes. Heathen.
Tilly was the one who had developed a unique rapport with Captain Saru, and he knew he could trust her, especially as someone who often thinks "out of the box".
definitely not true, as already discussed here weeks ago: reading the reviews, most of them quote specific plot points, so they must have watched it. What they have is A LOT of people giving high scores to “balance” the low ones (they say it in the reviews themselves!) and a few creeps giving low scores anytime the episode goes near something LGBT. Again, this is very easy to check by reading the reviews themselves, as we discussed weeks ago.
Even that isn't conclusive. I've had a colleague of mine who hasn't watched the series since early Season 1 message me out of the blue complaining about various plot points in the Season 3 opener. It quickly turned out that he hasn't seen the episode at all and was just mindlessly regurgitating whatever The Critical Drinker had said about it. You don't have to watch the show if you can watch dozens of youtubers explaining to you what you have to hate about it instead.
So you prefer to believe it’s a conspiracy of people coordinating on YouTube trying to undermine discovery than a lot of people having issues with an episode. Understandable.
I don't believe there's necessarily a conspiracy, no. I will not start psychoanalyzing the motivations of random people in comment sections, but I stand by my assertion that you can't and shouldn't make assumptions about the watching experience of any specific commenter. Asserting that IMDB scores are genuine and they mean that the vast majority of Discovery's viewers are only hate-watching is just as unverifiable as asserting otherwise. People complaining about (or conversely, praising) shows they don't watch is not exactly unheard of, especially if they find an online echo chamber.
That’s not what I said. I said that people with a “hate campaign rushing in with 1 starsreviews without having watched it” is false, if you prefer I’ll retract saying it’s a really, really unlikely and wild theory, judging from the vast numbers of negative reviews, most of which cite specific points they don’t like, not necessarily always the same ones.
I still can't help but notice how the 10 scores are invalid by default because people who liked the episode but think it's imperfect still gave 10 scores for tactical reasons, but a person who merely "had issues" with the episode still rating it the lowest score possible is asserted to be genuine and valid merely because they complain about plot points that have already been dissected in dozens of popular youtube videos, subreddits and whatnot or can even be seen in the trailers. Shouldn't the lowest score mean that they find literally no saving grace in the entire episode at all?
EDIT: And even if they're genuine... why are we acting like IMDB is a valid metric of how popular and unpopular a media product is? It's not by any means a representative sample of people who watch the show in question.
EDIT: And even if they're genuine... why are we acting like IMDB is a valid metric of how popular and unpopular a media product is? It's not by any means a representative sample of people who watch the show in question.
I didn’t said they are invalid.
I did point out that many of those 10 stars review mention giving 10 stars to balance the low reviews, though.
I did point out that many of those 10 stars review mention giving 10 stars to balance the low reviews, though.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on your original reply
it definitely seems to me that your argument is that 10 scores are more invalid than 1 scores because many 10 scores explicitly claim to be tactical but the vast majority of 1 scores actually rated the episode that low based on their viewing experience, with only a small minority having an agenda behind their rating.
But not “by default”, as you said. Also, I never said “invalid”. I could go with “insincere”, perhaps, but I’m not really willing to go with that either: I wouldn’t give a 10 to an episode while also pointing out problems with the episode, because I think “10” should mean “perfect”, but others seem fine with that, so good for them.
Yep, like I said earlier we already know there's people that are organised to downvote these things. It has been requested by youtubers, both on their channels and in their private discords. Doomcock's private Discord is a thing of great beauty, as are his private get-togethers.
In a very literal sense, it is a conspiracy insofar as people conspire to downvote these things.
and yet no one has provided proofs of this. I mean, if there were pages with people “conspiring” to downvote discovery they should be easy to find, but every time one asks for links to them no one does provide them.
