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MemoryAlpha editor refuses to change Adira's Gender to "Non-Binary"

Spike730 said:
Can someone with a deeper understanding of MA policies explain why for example Starship class names from official sources are acceptable but Adira's non-binary status is deemed not official?
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I've found in the past Memory Alpha seems to have a double standard regarding their "strictly canonical only" policy to basically mean "if we like it we'll include it regardless." For example, they invoke this policy and refuse to call the Kelvin Timeline "Kelvin Timeline" because it was never referred to as such on screen. Yet, they have always since the beginning referred to the Mirror Universe as "Mirror Universe" despite the fact it was never called that on screen until 2019. The likeliest explanation has always been assumed to be bias against Bad Robot.

So the fact they refused to call Adira non-binary speaks volumes in regards to their opinion of non-binary people.
 
Spike730 said:
So, the use of "he" or "she" allows to use male and female in articles but if a character explicitly states to prefer "they/them" it's not enough to assume "non-binary"?
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No, as soon as Adira stated that the page was changed. The sidebar data was changed from "Gender: Female" to "Gender: Non-binary" and all pronouns were changed from she/her/hers to they/them/theirs. That was done the day the episode aired.
 
dahj said:
Adira is very clearly non-binary, yet you require them to state it on screen to acknowledge it while you haven't required that of any other character up until now.
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Please answer this... what makes Adira clearly non-binary? If it hadn't been stated in the publicity, how are we to know that someone using she/her pronouns (ok, Adira didn't use those, but also initially didn't correct people using them) isn't female? And no, we can't go by the gender of the actor, unless you're willing to say that non-binary actors absolutely cannot play binary characters - which I'm not, btw.
 
mdtauk said:
@Renegade54 Initially listing the character of Adira as Female, was ok to do (not the actor playing Adira). But once the Character explicitly said, they have never felt like a She or a Her - is the moment you update the article, and specify the scene and episode where the character revealed this.

After that, unless and until the character changes how they feel, then the article's sidebar should list Gender as Non-binary - no debate, no equivocations, no reservations, and no provisions.

Removing Gender doesn't need to happen. It is ok to list a Gender based on the pronouns used, but if a canon source contradicts this, just updated the article with the corrected information.
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And that's exactly what we did. I made sure of it.

And as for the rest... while I agree with your take, I'm not sure everyone else would agree. I don't know at this point, either, if anyone really feels like watching 800 episodes to ensure that a character really *was* referred somewhere as he/him or she/her or anything else... and to edit each character article to reflect that. I would be a massive undertaking. If someone wants to do it, more power to them, but I think at this point, it's more expedient to simply remove gender from the sidebars. We can always add it back at a later time if we want to.
 
Oh, I thought both chose to go by non-binary terms. Thanks for clarifying that.
 
Court_Vince said:
Don't you see how this is the same cop-out as before? Rather than just keep Nonbinary on Adira's page, we just go back in circles again?
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No, truly I don't... how is it a cop-out? If no characters have gender in the sidebar, and all characters have a gender in the first sentence and use correct pronouns throughout the article... how is that a cop-out? I think I'm missing something. Or are you talking about the gender in the first sentence?

Court_Vince said:
It became a issue when you decided to give Adira different treatment in regards to what was shown on screen, For most characters its just assumed that they identified from birth the way that do now, but usually isnt shown screen. In Adira's case it was point blank said they never felt like a "she or a her". But all of sudden on screen canon info is require before the MA mods can accept it? How convenient.
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Please lose the snark. It raises my hackles. I'm doing my best here to answer everyone's questions thoroughly and honestly.

We *did* change the sidebar info once Adira made note of her preferred pronouns... or am I missing something again?
 
So here's the truth. Men are men women are women. Men can't be women or vice versa. You can have all the surgery you want and you just have a mutilated body. Its a fact of life its science.

You want to make the argument that since she's a symboiant with dozens of diffrent life experiences wrapped into one mixed with a space slug, and she wants to be called they/them , I get that. But Adira is a woman.
 
Yobs said:
So here's the truth. Men are men women are women. Men can't be women or vice versa. You can have all the surgery you want and you just have a mutilated body. Its a fact of life its science.

You want to make the argument that since she's a symboiant with dozens of diffrent life experiences wrapped into one mixed with a space slug, and she wants to be called they/them , I get that. But Adira is a woman.
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21aqbc.jpg
 
Renegade54 said:
No, as soon as Adira stated that the page was changed. The sidebar data was changed from "Gender: Female" to "Gender: Non-binary" and all pronouns were changed from she/her/hers to they/them/theirs. That was done the day the episode aired.
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So your position is that this was wrong, as it remains non canonical information? I'm so confused as to your position here.
 
Yobs said:
So here's the truth. Men are men women are women. Men can't be women or vice versa. You can have all the surgery you want and you just have a mutilated body. Its a fact of life its science.

You want to make the argument that since she's a symboiant with dozens of diffrent life experiences wrapped into one mixed with a space slug, and she wants to be called they/them , I get that. But Adira is a woman.
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Registered to post this. Bodes well.
Infraction for trolling, comments to PM.
Reply ban to this thread.
 
Renegade54 said:
No, truly I don't... how is it a cop-out? If no characters have gender in the sidebar, and all characters have a gender in the first sentence and use correct pronouns throughout the article... how is that a cop-out? I think I'm missing something. Or are you talking about the gender in the first sentence?



Please lose the snark. It raises my hackles. I'm doing my best here to answer everyone's questions thoroughly and honestly.

We *did* change the sidebar info once Adira made note of her preferred pronouns... or am I missing something again?
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I apologize for the snark. It was cop-out or at very least appeared to be given the reaction by the mods when ppl asked for it changed back when this issue was new, in fact someone else raised this point on the talk pages.
 
DonIago said:
Renegade, the relative virtues of your responses not necessarily withstanding, I want to thank you for caring enough about the situation to create an account here and join this discussion when (I assume) you were under no obligation to do so. Even if your answers ultimately don't satisfy anyone...and I hope that won't be the case...I appreciate your coming here to provide your perspective. From my perspective you've been under fire pretty much since you identified yourself, and I'm sorry you haven't received a warmer reception.
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Heh, you're welcome, and I appreciate the thanks. And no, I'm under no obligation... I'm just here to try to learn and inform and bridge gaps and get my ass handed to me several time over. OK, maybe not that last one so much.

And no problem, I more or less expected as much... it's a hot topic important to a lot of people.
 
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