Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x13 - "That Hope Is You, Part 2"

[fireproof78]

Hero ship plot armor.

It's funny to be now because the threshold for stupid plot armor and other tech-tech solutions seems to be currently much less and screams of "What about science!?" as though prior Trek was consistent with science. Please. I love TOS but it feels out of step with science nowadays. I don't watch Trek for a scientific lecture. I watch it for the characters in a science fantasy setting.

 

[Discofan]

It's funny to be now because the threshold for stupid plot armor and other tech-tech solutions seems to be currently much less and screams of "What about science!?" as though prior Trek was consistent with science. Please. I love TOS but it feels out of step with science nowadays. I don't watch Trek for a scientific lecture. I watch it for the characters in a science fantasy setting.

True but In some cases the "science" feels so outrageously wrong that you've got to wonder if the so-called writers have ever read anything about science, even at the most elementary level. I am thinking of the three Kelvin movies. It's such bullshit all along that it makes it really hard to watch the movie without being distracted by it.


I mean each detail, each plot point Is so terribly wrong!! I mean like at the end of "Into Darkness" for example when they are so anxious that Spock could kill Khan!!

1) Even if he was killed, unless he was disintegrated, which he wasn't since Spock was just beating the shit out of him, his blood would still be useable for quite some time. Just because you're dead doesn't mean that every cell in your body fossilizes in an instant!!!

2) Even if Kahn's body is destroyed, there are still plenty of others to draw blood from!!! I can't believe they've forgotten about those!!

That's just a tiny example of the constant bullshit we have to put up with when watching these movies.

 

[Deks]

It was the most plot armour in the history of plot armour. It was so OP the franchise essentially now ignores it. It was like if Superman became a Federation starship.

Oh I know they ignored it - Trek writers have a nasty habit of ignoring most of the technology and even progressing it forward (like it was seemingly the case for 32nd century and Discovery), so, that's not exactly unexpected. I'm just as miffed about it as you are... but to say I had a problem with the armor tech or Transphasic torpedoes themselves? Nope. It actually showed some kind of progression (a large leap forward in fact that I think was long overdue).

No sign of future tech was present in either Nemesis movie or Picard... heck, the Enterprise-E certainly could have used both Transphasic torpedoes and the armor against the Scimitar, but of course, none of it was used.

Part of the reason behind this is because movies and TV series use different writers.... some of which aren't familiar that well with technologies in the overall franchise, and partly because they don't use them for the drama.

I suppose the biggest in-universe reason for not using those technologies would be the Temporal Prime Directive - even though the timeline those technologies originated from won't be happening now, I guess the Federation may have thought that using those technologies could introduce a radical imbalance of power in the Alpha and Beta quadrants.

 

[cultcross]

It's funny to be now because the threshold for stupid plot armor and other tech-tech solutions seems to be currently much less and screams of "What about science!?" as though prior Trek was consistent with science. Please. I love TOS but it feels out of step with science nowadays. I don't watch Trek for a scientific lecture. I watch it for the characters in a science fantasy setting.

Been rewatching Voyager over lockdown and my God the technobabble is outrageous. It's all in the earnestness of the delivery.

 

[fireproof78]

True but In some cases the "science" feels so outrageously wrong that you've got to wonder if the so-called writers have ever read anything about science, even at the most elementary level. I am thinking of the three Kelvin movies. It's such bullshit all along that it makes it really hard to watch the movie without being distracted by it.

I guess...I don't expect hard science at all and this is the franchise that has interbreeding with species that have no relationship to one another (and an ad hoc explanation later on in TNG doesn't change TOS assumption). Warp drive doesn't work the way described in Star Trek, battles don't work that way, on and on.

Star Trek is its own thing. Pretending that it fits with science doesn't work for me in any way any more.

Been rewatching Voyager over lockdown and my God the technobabble is outrageous. It's all in the earnestness of the delivery.

Yup. Discovery would be just fine so long as Nilsson or Tilly spout out a stream of sciency sounding technobabble, regardless of its relation to real world science. Voyager set the standard for technobabble. It's not science.

 

[ananta]

So, I pretty much loved that! They really pulled things together and ended a slightly uneven (but overall very good) season on a high note. I was hooked throughout and admit to crying more than once at the end (so sue me anti-crying brigade!!). I’m too tired to say more, and not brave enough to wade through 20+ pages of comments, so I’ll just say that Burnham’s final voiceover about overcoming the isolation we find ourselves in...how prophetic was that on the part of the writers?

I hope it won’t be too long before we get season 4. And hopefully we non-US viewers will finally get to see Lower Decks soon!

 

[Fateor]

Hey, what are the technical objections to mass-producing spore drives now that there's more than one person around who can activate one? I can't think of a limiting factor other than the number of empaths.

Er... Quick! Look behind you a three headed monkey!

Which is to say the Writers are almost sure to ignore the fact they have established now that Spore Drives are easy to build with 23nd century technology, and that any universal empath can navigate them.

 

[Vger23]

I gave it a 1 and I often rate DIS harsh because I come on here after watching a mediocre episode to find 10s everywhers so I see it as a counterbalance to the DIS can do no wrong people

Cool approach. It’s really important to make sure you are a force for “balance” in the ratings system.

Because shit like that really matters.

I’m sure Kurtzman himself sees that and goes back hoping he can make you happy next time.

Seriously, you need a different hobby or outlet. I can’t figure how you’d think reacting in that fashion, after watching a show you don’t like anyway, is productive.

 

[donners22]

I honestly don't know how to rate this episode.

On one hand, it was generally a fun ride.

On the other, it was utterly nonsensical (the turbolift, the Michael/Osyraa fight - I still don't get what happened there, Gray, the whole Burn explanation), repeatedly saccharine and made me cringe several times.

I just don't know what to make of this season. I loved the first two, but the third has been so frustrating.

 

[fireproof78]

Cool approach. It’s really important to make sure you are a force for “balance” in the ratings system.

Because shit like that really matters.

I’m sure Kurtzman himself sees that and goes back hoping he can make you happy next time.

Seriously, you need a different hobby or outlet.

Star Trek doesn't deserve 10s, donchaknow?

 

[Timo]

The plots probably wouldn't be harmed much if everybody had spore drive. Many a franchise works fine with jump drives of that sort.

The surprise factor here is the availability of people like Book, though. At first it seemed as if there was a whole species of them. But then it very much appeared as if only Book and his brotheroid had the skill required to make the locusts float away. Are there only two (or, say, forty) people in the universe with the forehead-glowing empathy skills?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

Er... Quick! Look behind you a three headed monkey!

Which is to say the Writers are almost sure to ignore the fact they have established now that Spore Drives are easy to build with 23nd century technology, and that any universal empath can navigate them.

Dating back to Season 1 it was said that computer processing speeds simply weren't good enough to use the Spore Drive.
They got around this problem by using a living navigator which can communicate with the spores... but this communication can probably be established by a sufficiently powerful and sentient AI, and also with a different interface (which both Stamets and Tilly were tasked to work on so the Spore Drive can be used without Stamets - and subsequently we never heard anything about it), and now of course an empath from Kweijan (or at least one capable of communicating with the Tardigrades).

So, by 32nd century, computers should be more than powerful enough to replace an organic navigator (heck, by 24th century, computers should be more than powerful enough for the task) - aka think sentient AI like Zora.
An alternate interface using dark matter of course... or an empath.

I wonder which of these will be used and how they plan on moving things forward.

But yes, Spore drives are easy to build with 23rd century technology... it would be childs play for 32nd century to just reproduce/replicate the technology even if they need to work on one of the three viable solutions for mass utilization.

 

[saladdays]

The plots probably wouldn't be harmed much if everybody had spore drive. Many a franchise works fine with jump drives of that sort.

The surprise factor here is the availability of people like Book, though. At first it seemed as if there was a whole species of them. But then it very much appeared as if only Book and his brotheroid had the skill required to make the locusts float away. Are there only two (or, say, forty) people in the universe with the forehead-glowing empathy skills?

Yeah, I think they were trying to distinguish Book (and I guess his brother) from most other empaths. It could have been done better, but my guess if this becomes a thing in the future (and not ignored) is that there's only a select few that can use the spore drive.

 

[fireproof78]

Hopefully the spore drive is nerfed.

 

[saladdays]

Dating back to Season 1 it was said that computer processing speeds simply weren't good enough to use the Spore Drive.
They got around this problem by using a living navigator which can communicate with the spores... but this communication can probably be established by a sufficiently powerful and sentient AI, and also with a different interface (which both Stamets and Tilly were tasked to work on so the Spore Drive can be used without Stamets - and subsequently we never heard anything about it), and now of course an empath from Kweijan (or at least one capable of communicating with the Tardigrades).

So, by 32nd century, computers should be more than powerful enough to replace an organic navigator (heck, by 24th century, computers should be more than powerful enough for the task) - aka think sentient AI like Zora.
An alternate interface using dark matter of course... or an empath.

I wonder which of these will be used and how they plan on moving things forward.

But yes, Spore drives are easy to build with 23rd century technology... it would be childs play for 32nd century to just reproduce/replicate the technology even if they need to work on one of the three viable solutions for mass utilization.

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that a living navigator is the only good way for sustained use of the spore drive, which can be used to explain why the tech has not ever been discovered and developed by anyone else. Maybe Stamets even loses the ability to use it, and so it never is able to be used again.

 

[Timo]

Yeah, I think they were trying to distinguish Book (and I guess his brother) from most other empaths. It could have been done better, but my guess if this becomes a thing in the future (and not ignored) is that there's only a select few that can use the spore drive.

Which sort of stands to reason: if it were down to mere tech, thousands of cultures would have attained it long before TOS, or before the dinosaurs for that matter. But we see that not even the dinosaurs for all their transwarp excellence have this drive, so it must be something else. And shortage of suitable pilots sounds fine.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vger23]

I thought that, as a finale for what was otherwise a somewhat uneven season compared to how I felt about the other two, this was really entertaining on many different levels. I am grateful that I am blessed with the ability to not look at every nitpicky little thing and have it irritate me to the point where I can’t enjoy shows like this. And I mean that. I don’t know why that shit doesn’t phase me....but it just doesn’t.

this episode actually reminded me a lot of the things that I love about the Kelvin universe Star Trek movies. Yes some of it is nonsensical and way over the top, but at the end it’s just so much damn fun and the characters and performers are doing such a great job, that I just let myself get swept away in a cool Star Trek adventure.

I’m glad they went the route they did with the Burn story, making it a unique cause and not some villainous attempt to take down the galaxy. Although some people find that underwhelming, I found it really refreshing. The “sub space shockwave as a result of dilithium technobabble nonsense” reminded me of the Praxis explosion and resulting sub space shockwave in Star Trek VI (a result of dilithium over-mining). So, that gets a pass.

So, while this season was my least-favorite of the three, it was the better finale of the three. I gave a lot of episodes “low 7s” this season...probably more than half.

This one I liked a lot though. I’m giving it a 9 for hitting all the right beats, being a lot of fun, and wrapping things up in a satisfying way that leaves me looking forward to the next chapter.

 

[Deks]

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that a living navigator is the only good way for sustained use of the spore drive, which can be used to explain why the tech has not ever been discovered and developed by anyone else. Maybe Stamets even loses the ability to use it, and so it never is able to be used again.

It was already alluded the Spore Drive CAN be used without a navigator... you just need a workable alternate interface to allow the computer to interact with the Spores instead.

I don't want the Spore Drive to be rendered useless.. too many workable opportunities for non-Warp FTL technology (which were also much faster) have been passed on by the writers. It would be dumb to backtrack on that.

 

[Mr Awe]

That's sorta one of the ways I was hoping it would go, personally:
Kinda like if you're looking for a reason for a pandemic, you want to write about an intentional release, or failed attempt to cure cancer. 'Dude ate a bat' isn't where you want to pin the whole narrative, even if it's occasionally the sad truth...

I think any of your ideas are more interesting than a child screaming!

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Cool approach. It’s really important to make sure you are a force for “balance” in the ratings system.

Because shit like that really matters.

I’m sure Kurtzman himself sees that and goes back hoping he can make you happy next time.

Seriously, you need a different hobby or outlet. I can’t figure how you’d think reacting in that fashion, after watching a show you don’t like anyway, is productive.

Good one. Write a post and put a meme up about how "not even worth" engaging with me.

Most people don't read all of the comments and just look at the average so I like the average to be as accurate as possible. It's not a big deal really you are right about that it's just a rating on a fun forum rating