No it really hasn't. It's just a way to get into the actual story.
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- Thread starter F. King Daniel
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I'm not very good with acronyms... but if that's a reference to 'your mileage may vary'... I have to tell you that it seems like its used a lot.
Handwaving at best.
We're not stupid... and something a bit more... engaging in regards to technology and science (from a show that posits its set in the future) would be nicer and more convincing.
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WTF?
I was agreeing with you that they don't think big enough. Then noted that it probably wasn't going to change.
Ah I see. It didn't seem like that to me at first (but its excessively late here... so I'm actually tired and not thinking too clearly).
My apologies for my misunderstanding.
No, we're not stupid, but not everyone is going to go "Oh, that technology is very convincing." If I'm focused on that then Trek is doing something wrong, from my point of view.
Thus far, there is little in Trek that isn't the future in some sort. It may not be advanced as Trek tech would expect to be but that's nothing new for me.
No worries.
Eh? We don't see tech like this in TNG.
I think you go a bit TOO far without enough grasps on the limitation of reality and the way technology progresses IRL.
When you figure out how to make multiple transistors out of a single atom, then we'll talk. The current technological understanding based on science and engineering is that at smallest, one transistor can go down to one atom at most. Anything below that gets into wonky Quantum Physics realms and we don't have enough of a technological base to make multiple or even one transistor in the Sub-Atomic realm.
If the UFP is having issues with power generation due to "The Burn", then wasting alot of power to Transwarp Beam 1 person isn't practical in terms of power consumption/usage compared to moving alot of people and stuff via a StarShip and getting the most amount of People & Goods transported per unit fuel. Energy efficiency will always matter regardless of era.
By the start of my 26th century there should be multiple options within the UFP alone.
Reactor Power Types:
- Fusion
- Matter/Anti-Matter
- Artificial Quantum Singualarity
- Temporal Core
- Tetryon Reactors
- Spore Reactor
There's no reason to replace Dilithium Crystals since you can synthetically manufacturer Dilithium Crystals like you can do with Synthetic Diamonds in this day and age IRL.
Diversity of Power Reactor types allows for maximum power generation and resilience to failure of one power type.
IDIC (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations).
Every form of Power Generation should be harvested and used seemlessly for the greater usage by the UFP.
Everything from classical to modern should be harvested and used simultaneously.
Wind / Solar / Geo Thermal / Hydro / Wave should all be used at the same time as more modern reactors of the day and generate a RIDICULOUS over abundance of power so everybody can have cheap and plentiful access to electrical power.
I still think the UFP should have colonized and fix up the Dyson Sphere that Picard found. AKA The Jenolan Dyson Sphere could've have it's star tamed and fixed along with learning the secrets of Neutronium since the entire Dyson Sphere has Neutronium every where. And imagine turning that Dyson Sphere into a ultimate UFP Metropolis Planet like area where each section has a UFP member species create a large Hexagonal Arcology somewhere on the outside as a representation of their home world and a large shared inside where they can collect the power of the Star within and use it to help power everything. Imagine every new Member Species gets to populate the outside with it's own Arcology.
Ver 2 of the QSS Drive is the more dangerous one compared to Ver 1. Gradual improvement of QSS technology will eventually get StarFleet to Ver 2, but I think it'll take a longer time to test and improve safely to that point for mass deployment. Kind of like how the FAA works in the US for engine certification, it takes alot of time, testing, data, and analysis for new engines to come to mass production and sales along with certification.
You're getting to greedy without building up the foundation blocks of each technology. I prefer a more "Hard Sci-Fi" take on Star Trek if we can get it as much as possible.
Every piece of tech, if you imagine it, you need to be able to explain how it works at the most fundamental level instead of throwing "Hand-wavium" at it. I really dislike it when Star Trek does that, but I understand that some of it is necessary. But I'd still rather avoid that aspect if possible.
There are other people then those folks I think Trek Writers need to consult. People more grounded in reality then the fantasy and fantastical. People who are at the edge of what's practical for mass production.
You're rushing ahead WAY too far in thinking we'll get to Programmable matter in < 50 years. That definitely seems like a 1000 year + time table to make it practical and mass produced.
I think the UFP in the 24th century was fine still exploring the Milky Way.
The Universe is VAST and will last a long time, there's no rush and it's not a race in life. You want to explore things deeply and with accuracy over a large span of time.
Plus there are only so many research, lab, and field scientists out there. The vast majority of people don't care to be part of the science community and rather just be normal people enjoying life.
“Wonky quantum physics” is a problem for Trek...? Since when?! It’s practically ingrained in Trek!
And dubious-sub-atomic-particle-of-the-week deus-ex-machina has never been a thing...?!
Honestly, I think you’re waaaaaay over-thinking this.
I suspect that the tech is, if anything, completely under-imagined for the 32nd Century. The limitations, however, are not necessarily what the writers can imagine or even what the CGI and FX can show.
The question is how the characters can interact with the tech and how it interacts with the story-telling; most importantly, it’s about what the broader, non-nerdy-fan audience will accept and understand.
At the end of the day, despite artistic and creative intent, or even any historical cultural significance of the franchise, this is a commercial undertaking by a studio with the intent of making money. Sure, there’s creative content and art from writers, performers, directors, cinematographers, designers and creators for physical sets, costumes, props, and virtual art from CGI and everyone else, but at the end of the day, they need to be able to sell this and ensure an income stream!
This is not, and never has been, complex high-brow introspective science fiction with detailed futurism. There have undoubtedly been clever ideas along the way and some periods where the production staff put in more effort to scientific consistency and plausibility than at other times but that was never a core function — and any “rules” would inevitably be bent in service of their story if required.
It is what it is...
And dubious-sub-atomic-particle-of-the-week deus-ex-machina has never been a thing...?!
Honestly, I think you’re waaaaaay over-thinking this.
I suspect that the tech is, if anything, completely under-imagined for the 32nd Century. The limitations, however, are not necessarily what the writers can imagine or even what the CGI and FX can show.
The question is how the characters can interact with the tech and how it interacts with the story-telling; most importantly, it’s about what the broader, non-nerdy-fan audience will accept and understand.
At the end of the day, despite artistic and creative intent, or even any historical cultural significance of the franchise, this is a commercial undertaking by a studio with the intent of making money. Sure, there’s creative content and art from writers, performers, directors, cinematographers, designers and creators for physical sets, costumes, props, and virtual art from CGI and everyone else, but at the end of the day, they need to be able to sell this and ensure an income stream!
This is not, and never has been, complex high-brow introspective science fiction with detailed futurism. There have undoubtedly been clever ideas along the way and some periods where the production staff put in more effort to scientific consistency and plausibility than at other times but that was never a core function — and any “rules” would inevitably be bent in service of their story if required.
It is what it is...
Now y'all have me imagining a 32nd century adult holofilm...
"Oh, my! My programmable matter clothing seems to be malfunctioning. It's all disappearing. Could you take a ... close look lieutenant?"
"Oh, my! My programmable matter clothing seems to be malfunctioning. It's all disappearing. Could you take a ... close look lieutenant?"
Precisely. Make it so.
Exactly.
Actually, I am well aware of how the world is governed by natural laws and current 'limitations' and how technology and science evolve.
As more recent history shows (since the industrial revolution for example), time and time again, our limitations are a product of our lack of understanding... which we are filling in every single day thanks to exponential advancements and their returns.
And with due respect... your problem is you don't go nearly far enough. You seem to be stuck with a relatively small frame of view/reference.
Numerous things that were previously thought as 'unthinkable' (even as far as few decades) are more than doable right now.
And Trek has propelled Discovery 930 years into the future.
Given it was originally based on giving some kind of 'realism' because it used real life scientific concepts, I think the writers wouldn't have hurt to do a bit more in-depth research of some theoretical papers on what highly advanced civilizations might potentially look like and extrapolate from that using what came before on Trek.
I did mention atomic technology or subatomic technology.
Its Star Trek (it made other technologies up without actually having 0 relation to the real world).
The only reason I mentioned subatomic is because late 24th century Federation technology can already scan at the subatomic level, and they have worked to manipulate matter on very small scales.
Oh and we DID make a rather interesting discovery back in 2017 relating to 'bottom quarks'.
Anyway, my point is that going to the atomic level is already doable with todays technology (if not a bit difficult to control given the scales) and technically speaking, it would be something that would be very commonplace by mid 22nd century that it would probably be laughable to even mention as a 'novelty'.
Wasting a lot of power?
We're talking about power cells the size of a coin in the 30th and 31st century... that would be ridiculously powerful/energy dense compared to ANYTHING we saw in the late 24th century (and likely several centuries past that).
Again, you're not thinking far enough.
I keep seeing that synthetic dilithium crystals are mentioned, but according to canonical data, the synthetic version was created in 23rd century, but had no practical application in the energy field.
Mind you, do I think that synthetic dilithium crystals should have been a thing by the late 24th century? Of course... but like anything else, this crystalline compound (along with M/AM) would probably turn into something 'obsolete' by the late 25th century (though technically, it probably should have occurred by the late 24th).
Indeed, and Starfleet doesn't even appear to use Tetryon reactors or Spore reactors which demonstrated to be more efficient and better overall than Dilithium and M/AM.
The only reason Discovery still used dilithium and M/AM is because that's what the ship was designed with and at the time it was created, the ship didn't HAVE a spore drive.
For the sake of the argument though, we hadn't seen enough of the 32nd century to know what kind of other power sources Starfleet may be using (but its likely it will STILL be fusion and probably 0 use of Tetryon reactors).
There is such a thing as over-egineering things.
Ships by the late 24th century use predominantly Fusion and M/AM for power generation.
Again, Dilithium is bound to run out at some point (and as for synthetic Dilithium - we don't have any canonical data that it has viable applications beyond 23rd century) and unless its really renewable (such as say Spores - because you can easily grow them on the go in ridiculously large quantities), then you should really 'outgrow' its usage BEFORE you start running into shortages.
I quite agree with you here.
Again, I agree. Tell that to the writers (who seem to be content with letting things die in obscurity as opposed to showcasing real advancements).
Yes, V2 is more dangerous than V1, but even gradual improvement would have solved ANY underlying issues with V2 in less than (or just about in) 100 years.
Heck, even if you go with Zephram Cochrane's development of Warp drive which he used in 2063 when he initiated FC with the Vulcans, the technology was already ready to go (even if not in its early stages), but it was mainly the Vulcans who told Earth they weren't ready (and to a degree, they were correct, because Humans needed to 'clean up house' before venturing out into deep space - bringing all that baggage out with them would have caused them to repeat same mistakes over and over... and we know that this occurred in 50 years since First Contact... but Vulcans being very long lived probably wanted Earth to 'stay put' for longer, and managed (for the most part) to keep their Warp program (which had its own bugs to iron out - such as breaking through Warp 2) from launching for at least 90 years.
So, I would hazzard a guess that with the Federation having over 150 different alien species working together, sharing knowledge, technology and resources would have in fact been able to solve the phase variance issue with QS V2 in less than 10 years, and probably would have come up with a way to accelerate the synthesis of benamite crystals and also create recrystalization technology to bypass the degrading process... or would have found a way to grow benamite crystals that don't degrade as quickly - in about 20 odd years (maybe 30 to 50 tops) since Voyager came back home.
But alas, the writers didn't even use that... in fact, they focused on V2 and didn't even mention V1 (which would have been really useful as its much faster than Warp 9.9 still and SF would have probably designed ships with strong enough structural integrity fields to withstand quantum stresses shortly after Voyager got back ).
I'm hardly being greedy.
I'm saying Disco is taking place 930 years in the future. This is such a ridiculously large scope of time for science and technology to evolve (especially from space faring species) that the technological progress I mentioned should have happened in the next 200 to 300 years tops (by the 26th century).
How is what I mentioned fantasy and fantastical?
Its grounded on what we saw on Trek for crying out loud 810 years before 3188.
Practical for mass production?
You do realize the only thing that current socio-economic systems mass produces are things that are COST EFFECTIVE (not things that we have the technologically and resources to mass produce in sustainable abundance with minimal impact to the environment)?
Trek Federation doesn't have the same socio-economic system, therefore same limitations do NOT apply.
That's why Trek writers need to consult with people who deal in hypothetical and theoretical concepts of science that managed already to 'extrapolate' (somewhat) what highly advanced technological/space faring civilizations might look like.
That's nonsense, because we ALREADY have molecular manufacturing and AI controlled Atomic scale manufacturing.
Again, it won't take us anywhere near over 1000 years to make it practical and mass produced... it will take less than 100... or 50 even.
The Federation had the added bonus of 350 alien species (at its peak) cooperating and contributing.
They (with their FAR more advanced technology) would have been able to make it a reality much faster in comparison.
I don't... and Roddenberry had his issues with that notion as well (because to him it also seemed preposterous to NOT advance the Federation to that next stage.
Its' multiple species that have FTL capability and are highly technologically advanced.
It's not Star wars (now THAT is a fantasy if I've ever seen one).
Even with superfast Warp drive (or Spore drive) it would still take large amount of time to explore even the Milky Way fully.
That shouldn't stop the writers from advancing Trek beyond the scope of our Galaxy.
There's a whole universe out there.
That's today... in the current socio-economic system that doesn't exactly ENCOURAGE people to pursue the sciences, nor does it make it easy for people to go through socio-economic barriers (such as massive poverty, etc.) to do that.
But we've seen that when people are encouraged they do choose to go into the science field and are afforded the opportunity... they do so.
Plus Trek Humans and the Federation at large don't have the same socio-economic barriers in place to prevent people to pursue higher things... we preoccupy people with 'working for a living' so they could barely survive (despite the fact we already mass produce abundance in every field, and can do so with 10-100x lower footprint on Earth if we wanted to - but no, we still use Crapit... whoops... sorry, Capitalism.
I guess that's where me and you differ, you're more "Fantastical" while I'm more on the "Grounded" side of thinking.
Like?
That's because that's what the writers wanted to do so they can be "Free from existing canon".
I think the writers of that era did a good job for their day. You obviously differ on that opinion.
Some of the tech was made up, not all of it, some of it was reasonable extrapolation of future tech at the time.
https://physicsworld.com/a/higgs-boson-seen-decaying-to-two-bottom-quarks/
Is that what you were talking about?
Again, extrapolating to the fantastical. Just because you can "Scan on the Sub-Atomic level" doesn't mean you can do much else with it.
For plot reasons, they contrived batteries of that size with incredibly dense power storage capabilities.
I'd rather base tech on what is viable with the limits of our current science instead of claiming things we don't know if it's possible or not without scientific backing.
The less "Hand-Wavium" we use, the better.
I think Synthetic Dilithium Crystals should've been used within the M/A-M reactors.
We don't know if it's "More Efficient" or "Better OverAll". They've never stated any numbers or facts about that part, but it should be a alternate power source that we can use and should use.
You mean Discovery was designed around the Spore Drive.
We'll find out soon enough if the writers ever get down to the technical nitty gritty of things.
I'd rather Over-Engineer than Under-Engineer things.
Yes, I know.
Again, that is a plot device that "Writers for Discovery" have created. I would write other solutions like Synthetic Dilithium used to moderate M/A-M reactors and "Mass Production" / Replication of it is common and given to all UFP species.
The writers don't care about going into the details of the world and care more about writing Michael Burnhams love life and creating the Trials & Tribulations for Michael Burnham to overcome instead of exploring the world.
I know V1 has been "Mass Produced" and is in common place use in my 26th Century Universe across StarFleet. While V2 is being worked on to be safe.
I still think you go a bit too fast in pushing the technological boundries.
Because you try to push things "Too Far & Too Fast" for the rate of development shown within Universe.
We mass produce based on what we can setup to do. If it's "Sustainable" with minimal impact to the environment, then we as people have to make the choice in the materials we choose to make our product and how we handle their use after we discard them. But that's a seperate issue from the Trek discussion that we're having.
There will still be some limits, it's just going to be a bit different than today.
Resource such as Electrical Energy, Raw Matter availability, Any Individual Labor used to refine or produced.
All those can be quantified.
Yet the current canon has stated that it will take place in the 32nd century.
Do you want to make a bet that in 50 years, Programmable Matter won't be ready?
I'll bet you a nice Hamburger Meal if we ever meet up IRL.
Want to virtual Hand Shake on that?
I think Star Wars has it right in slowing the pace of advancement down.
Time is on a far larger scale and look at how long humans took to evolve and grow from their primitive state.
Look how long the "Bow & Arrow" reigned as the long range projectile of choice for a individual before FireArms took over.
Yes, eventually DEW (Directed Energy Weapons) will supplant Slug Throwers like FireArms, but that's a future inevitability.
There could be giant periods of time where for thousands of years humanity is largely the same on a similar level of tech and I wouldn't be surprised.
I agree, exploring beyond our Galaxy is inevitable, but we still have giant chunks of our existing Galaxy to explore, and in 3 Dimensions since space isn't "Flat", we need to stop portraying it as flat and use more 3D maps of stars and show our Galaxy in the real 3D arrangement.
Some will choose to go into the science and engineering fields. Not everybody, and still only a very small percentage of the overall population. Will it be more than what we have now, yes, of course it will. But will it be a huge swath of society, nope. Academia already restricts based on quality, not quantity. No half baked Scientists are allowed.
We all know how you feel about Capitalism, no need to hide it.
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If that was the reasoning, they wouldn't be making a Pike series in the 23rd. Because they'll be running right into the same issues with that one.
Different set of writing staff is doing Pike to my knowledge.
It's apples and oranges, regardless of who's writing it.
Pike on the Enterprise in planet-of-the-week episodic stories is conductive to being a prequel.
Discovery with its Spore Drive, escalating stakes, and so many things being classified, didn't truly want to be a prequel.
Pike on the Enterprise in planet-of-the-week episodic stories is conductive to being a prequel.
Discovery with its Spore Drive, escalating stakes, and so many things being classified, didn't truly want to be a prequel.
That doesn't change the time period it's set in.
So you're saying it's Star Trek?
No it doesn't, but it seems the Discovery team of writers were the ones who didn't like to be restrained by existing canon.
Other writing teams don't seem to mind it.
Looking at ST:Lower Decks.
I'm saying they want to make a show more focused on her love life more often than not instead of a Sci-Fi show where personal romances aren't the "Fore Front" or even focus of the story.So you're saying it's Star Trek?
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