Gorn and Federation - First Contact?

[Pauln6]

Nope. She already knew without anyone having to explain it to her.

She just repeated what Book said. You can imply that she had a wealth of knowledge behind her exclamation or she might have just been repeating what Book said.

 

[Dukhat]

She just repeated what Book said. You can imply that she had a wealth of knowledge behind her exclamation or she might have just been repeating what Book said.

I made it clear in my previous posts how I interpreted Burnham’s response. If I told you ‘The Shizzpopplemunchers beat me up,” you’re not going to say, “The Shizzpopplemunchers did what?” You’re going to say, “Who are the Shizzpopplemunchers?”

 

[The Wormhole]

Captain Archer heard of the Gorn from the Orions, IIRC, so Earth knew of them early, and if they did, it is pretty obvious the other older members of the Federation did as well. Knowing of them doesn't imply direct contact, of course.

In the Kelvin Unverse McCoy bragged about delivering Gorn babies, and that would have been before 2259.

Captain Lorca had a Gorn skeleton in his room of horrors in 2256. It all implies there was at least some general knowledge of the Gorn, even if there was no formal diplomatic involvement.

There's also an implied reference to the Gorn in the second season of Disco. They are presumably the "alligators on Cestus III" Leland was said to have dealt with.

 

[Pauln6]

I made it clear in my previous posts how I interpreted Burnham’s response. If I told you ‘The Shizzpopplemunchers beat me up,” you’re not going to say, “The Shizzpopplemunchers did what?” You’re going to say, “Who are the Shizzpopplemunchers?”

That's a very 21st century approach. In the 23rd century, we've learned not to fear random alien species' names.

 

[Dukhat]

That's a very 21st century approach. In the 23rd century, we've learned not to fear random alien species' names.

Who said anything about fearing random names? I think you completely missed my point.

 

[Pauln6]

Who said anything about fearing random names? I think you completely missed my point.

I was paraphrasing Uhura.

 

[Timo]

There's also an implied reference to the Gorn in the second season of Disco. They are presumably the "alligators on Cestus III" Leland was said to have dealt with.

The implication of the implication is worth pondering...

Sure, it's a cute Gorn reference in terms of what the writers were thinking. And in the context of the story, and of what we have learned of Leland's organization and its predecessors and successors, it makes perfect sense that there would be sinister things afoot, with parts of Starfleet knowing perfectly well that Cestus III is a hotbed of Gorn intrigue, and other parts deliberately not being told, and dying as the result.

But the implication then is that Pike is okay with that. That is, that the nature of how he and Leland go way back is dark and dank, with Pike just as much a covert ops, necessary deaths man as Leland, only he has chosen to go squeaky clean on his old days and Leland is calling him on his hypocrisy which lets the Traverses of Starfleet die while the Pikes get to score scientific discoveries and first contacts.

If we instead interpret the alligators as mere natural fauna for Cestus III, and their relationship to Gorn interests in that piece of real estate an unknown (even if quite possibly extant) one to Pike at that point, then Pike's clean act gains gravitas. And we can continue to believe in Leland knowing about the Gorn if we wish.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

Unless the Gorn made first contact with the Federation several years before TOS, as suggested in the Kelvinverse (and we know how the timeline is different there), then yes it is.

The Kelvinverse, the Disco reality and ENTs temporally altered timeline are all different to TOS!!!
JB

 

[XCV330]

The Kelvinverse, the Disco reality and ENTs temporally altered timeline are all different to TOS!!!
JB

at the risk of being pedantic, the show has continued to be made since TOS third season, and changes, retcons, and addtions to the universe have needed to be made. Beyond someone's personal imagination, there is no Disco Reality in the series. The altered timeline by the Sphere Builders in ENT was negated.

TOS was a great show, but it's not some immutable law of physics that everything else has to bend around.

 

[Timo]

Then again, the comment about Kelvin being its own thing is valid here: the only reason we involve it here is because McCoy there has had personal experience with the Gorn, which would absolutely necessarily have to be an "alternate history" thing, something taking place after 2233. In Kelvin, contact with Romulans is also implicitly very different, and also implicitly a post-2233 thing.

(In comparison, while Kelvin mentions the Cardassians early on, there's no pressing reason to think this would have happened differently in Prime. No need to declare everything about the Abrams adventures invalid or irrelevant to the Trek lore or anything.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FederationHistorian]

The Kelvinverse, the Disco reality and ENTs temporally altered timeline are all different to TOS!!!
JB

Who is to say that Captain April or Captain Pike, or a different group of Starfleet officers at the time, never had an unofficial first contact with the Gorn though?

The Kelvinverse movies do take place when Pike should actually be captain in the prime timeline. And I do not think McCoy was a part of Pike's crew at the time; he could have been assigned elsewhere. Its not like everything has to be static here. Its a living universe, afterall.

 

[Pauln6]

I think McCoy's encounter with the gorn was in the official computer game.

 

[johnnybear]

Things have to be changed I agree even within the years of TOS there is some discontinuity! But if we allow for writers who have no interest in the original series to make changes here and there that affect episodes that were set in that era then we are only watching a sci-fi show and not Star Trek! Canon is personable to the person or people watching it and if a thing is changed just to accommodate the new show then that earlier series is either in another timeline or the original has been erased surely?
JB

 

[Timo]

In this specific case, I see no reason for the histrionics. How would X and Y meeting the Gorn long before Kirk erase anything? It's a perfectly allowable event in the fictional universe of Star Trek, by the rules already laid out in TOS. "We have no clue what our predecessors dealt with" is even a whole plotline unto itself in "Balance of Terror"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Odo]

Thanks again for all the responses.

One of the great things about being a fan is having a personal head canon. Enterprise and Disco might not be recognized as Star Trek by some fans, while being embraced by others. Of course, all the shows - including the contradictions - are canon, and canon will always be contradictory. But at the end of the day, we each have our head canon - so for me personally, for example, Kes never returned in Fury!

 

[XCV330]

Things have to be changed I agree even within the years of TOS there is some discontinuity! But if we allow for writers who have no interest in the original series to make changes here and there that affect episodes that were set in that era then we are only watching a sci-fi show and not Star Trek! Canon is personable to the person or people watching it and if a thing is changed just to accommodate the new show then that earlier series is either in another timeline or the original has been erased surely?
JB

Canon is whatever CBS and Paramount says it is, specifically whatever makes it to the screen.
The idea that Discovery writers don't care about canon or TOS is ludicrous. Large chunks of Season 2 are practically a fan's love letter to TOS. They know the lore. They're not getting paid to write TOS Season 4, however.

The backstories will continue to get adjusted, the lore will continue to be expanded, refined and knocked out of whack. If that bothers Fandamentalist viewers, the only thing to do is to hold on to those precious non-HD restoration TOS episodes and watch them till the disk de-laminates or the tape breaks.
Does your keyboard have a period? Just curious.

 

[Noname Given]

Then again, the comment about Kelvin being its own thing is valid here: the only reason we involve it here is because McCoy there has had personal experience with the Gorn, which would absolutely necessarily have to be an "alternate history" thing, something taking place after 2233. In Kelvin, contact with Romulans is also implicitly very different, and also implicitly a post-2233 thing.

(In comparison, while Kelvin mentions the Cardassians early on, there's no pressing reason to think this would have happened differently in Prime. No need to declare everything about the Abrams adventures invalid or irrelevant to the Trek lore or anything.)

Timo Saloniemi

Their reality was changed greatly as soon as they encountered a Romulan vessel in the 2230s. That brought the Federation into contact with the Romulan Empire 30 years sooner than in the TOS reality.

Given that who knows how much more they explored given the change in situation? Admiral Marcus reaction shows that Starfleet was suddenly concerned with possible alien invasion based on what happened to the USS Kelvin.

 

[Timo]

Why would meeting Nero in 2233 bring any sort of contact between the UFP and Romulus?

If the Feds didn't know who the Romulans were before this meeting, they wouldn't know it afterwards, either. Nero never says he's Romulan. He does nothing Romulan (such as, say, speak Romulanese or fly a ship with a bird painted on or activate a holocamouflage device). He doesn't look Romulan, because there is no such thing as "looking Romulan" at that point; he looks Vulcan, just like the man he hunts. And he isn't in Romulan space, or at least we never get any indication of such, and only some random walla on Klingons being nearby.

Also, as far as we can tell, Nero had no interest in allying with or even contacting the Romulans of the day, and went for deniability on that when speaking with Pike.

At some point between 2233 and 2358, Starfleet does learn that Nero's ship was Romulan, and Pike writes a dissertation about that. But apparently only S31 subsequently reacts to this specific threat; the Starfleet we see is no more prepared for it in 2258 than it was in 2233. And it's Klingons that Starfleet in ST:ID worries about, rather specifically.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Noname Given]

Why would meeting Nero in 2233 bring any sort of contact between the UFP and Romulus?

If the Feds didn't know who the Romulans were before this meeting, they wouldn't know it afterwards, either. Nero never says he's Romulan. He does nothing Romulan (such as, say, speak Romulanese or fly a ship with a bird painted on or activate a holocamouflage device). He doesn't look Romulan, because there is no such thing as "looking Romulan" at that point; he looks Vulcan, just like the man he hunts. And he isn't in Romulan space, or at least we never get any indication of such, and only some random walla on Klingons being nearby.

Also, as far as we can tell, Nero had no interest in allying with or even contacting the Romulans of the day, and went for deniability on that when speaking with Pike.

At some point between 2233 and 2358, Starfleet does learn that Nero's ship was Romulan, and Pike writes a dissertation about that. But apparently only S31 subsequently reacts to this specific threat; the Starfleet we see is no more prepared for it in 2258 than it was in 2233. And it's Klingons that Starfleet in ST:ID worries about, rather specifically.

Timo Saloniemi

Actually you're right I made one mistake. I forgot that they didn't know Nero was a Romulan until he destroyed Vulcan in 2258; 8 years prior to when the Romulans would reappear in the prime timeline.

But the logic still holds in that it changed how the Federation looked at the universe It lived in; And again as admiral Marcus actions show, The Star Fleet of the Kelvin universe was a bit more militaristic than that of the prime timeline.

 

[Hofner]

johnnybear, this post is of absolutely no interest for you here so you can go ahead and skip it.




XCV330 said,

Does your keyboard have a period? Just curious.


Psst, playing a joke, someone remapped his keyboard, and swapped the period and exclamation point to see how long it takes him to notice.

Robert