The Presidential & VP Debates

[Oddish]

Well, i am from europe and more focused on european politics, so i thought maybe you just have more insights into the democratic party than me. But it looks like you dont have anything to back up your accusation

Didn't know you were European. When we Americans talk politics, it often gets ugly. I did put up a list of things that Dems advocate that are of concern to me. I then erased it, because I thought it a bad idea to turn a discussion of the debate into a discussion of something else.

You want to discuss a specific political issue like immigration, gun control, or legal restrictions on "hate speech", point me at the proper topic and I'll show up.

Is this your thing, to throw something controversial out there and then duck out of further discussion? "I can prove atheism is a faith, but it's all opinion and I don't want to discuss it." "Joe Biden is the greatest threat to a free society ever, but I don't want to talk about it."

I stated my case why I think of atheism as a faith. Others didn't agree with it, as is their right. I know from experience that further discussion would have led to attempts to evangelize me (anti-evangelize?), and when I resisted, it would turn into the verbal equivalent of a back alley knife fight. I've been at this for a very long time, and have found that atheists REALLY don't like it when I refuse to adopt their faith (or call it whatever you want to), and they usually express their aggravation with insults, accusations, and liberal quantities of potty words. Didn't really want to deal with that.

 

[arch101]

They really need to include Dr Jo Jorgensen in the next debate. All they did last night is show us the kiddies table at a Thanksgiving dinner. They need an adult in the room very badly.

 

[Oddish]

They need three adults in that room very badly. Sadly, we're probably not going to get them.

 

[StarCruiser]

I think Biden (and Wallace) were both adults, it's just very hard to deal with a mindless bully beyond a certain point. Drumpf (the Trumpster fire (tm)) just couldn't behave for five seconds.

We all need to remember that there are more than "Right" vs. "Left" in American politics. In case we have forgotten, the Republican party started out as a Progressive party in the mid-1800's. Part of it's platform was abolishion of slavery - and that was the sticking point with the South (dominated by the then very conservative Democratic party) that led to the Civil War.

Since Lincoln was assassinated before he could finish planning for the post-Civil War America and a Democrat took over and basically started trying to reverse anything he could (remember Andrew Johnson?) we never really ended that war. In a way, it's still going on just like the Korean War never actually ended.

Over the years, the Republican party abandoned it's original principles and became the "Conservative" party while the Democrats have become a combination of Progressives and Socialists (with yes, a few actual Communists in the mix).

Now - we have an idiot in the White House, basically elected by people who were either hoodwinked into voting for him or worse, actually like the madness he spews from his mouth on a daily basis. Joe Biden may not be the perfect person for the job but, he's not an idiot, nor is he a racist prick. He's also not a Communist, probably not even a Socialist - just a Progressive - like Lincoln was, and Teddy Roosevelt and to some extent, even Ike Eisenhower (all Republicans).

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I you have to resort to the F-word to make your point, you're not worth debating.

The f-word? Goodness me, did I call Trump a fascist again? If the jackboot fits (and he orders all his clothes two sizes too large, so you know it will)...

If you can't handle someone saying "fuck" and think that gives you some kind of moral high ground to declare the debate over, well I'm sorry, Obi-Wan, that's not how it works. Adults use colorful metaphors to make their point sometimes, especially when they're trying to put emphasis on a crazy fucking situation. Welcome to the internet.

And the people Biden is in bed with are the greatest threat to a free and just society that we've ever seen. So while Biden might be the better man... is he the better candidate?

Uh huh. That's a nice drive-by to drop and then not back up with anything.

 

[J.T.B.]

I then erased it, because I thought it a bad idea to turn a discussion of the debate into a discussion of something else.

If you were worried about the tone of the discussion, why did you introduce such an catastrophized characterization of one of the candidates?

I stated my case why I think of atheism as a faith. Others didn't agree with it, as is their right. I know from experience that further discussion would have led to attempts to evangelize me (anti-evangelize?), and when I resisted, it would turn into the verbal equivalent of a back alley knife fight. I've been at this for a very long time, and have found that atheists REALLY don't like it when I refuse to adopt their faith (or call it whatever you want to), and they usually express their aggravation with insults, accusations, and liberal quantities of potty words. Didn't really want to deal with that

Yet no one in the thread got personal with you or expressed a desire for you to adopt their position. You could always have bowed out if it reached that point, without presupposing (as you've done again) that the other participants would be unable to maintain a civil discussion.

 

[Oddish]

If you can't handle someone saying "fuck" and think that gives you some kind of moral high ground to declare the debate over, well I'm sorry, Obi-Wan, that's not how it works. Adults use colorful metaphors to make their point sometimes, especially when they're trying to put emphasis on a crazy fucking situation. Welcome to the internet.

It's a word used to shock or intimidate. I don't rely on either tactic. Honestly, it's the kind of thing Trump would do.

If you were worried about the tone of the discussion, why did you introduce such an catastrophized characterization of one of the candidates?



Yet no one in the thread got personal with you or expressed a desire for you to adopt their position. You could always have bowed out if it reached that point, without presupposing (as you've done again) that the other participants would be unable to maintain a civil discussion.

That's two issues, I'll address them separately.

One, I'm only human. Ergo, fallible. I regret the placement of my words, but I still believe them.

Two, I'm not sure what you're saying I should have done. I was invited to express my opinion by the topic title. I stated my position completely. Others disagreed with me. I respected their right to their own opinion, and agreed to disagree. And with that, I withdrew from the discussion. Why is that wrong?

 

[Mojochi]

As far as I'm concerned, there's not much actual debate in our political process anyhow. It's mostly just stump speech one-upmanship, for media soundbites. That said, even that level of discourse is an impossibility with this president, without debasing oneself in the process. It's just a shit decision all around imho.

"Hey, I got an idea. Why don't I go act like a guest on Jerry Springer for an hour & a half? That ought to up my stock"

 

[suarezguy]

I think Biden did a little better but both were overall OK and just OK.

Trump definitely seemed desperate but still got in a few decent attacks, Biden less disingenuous and yet still, at times, pretty disingenuous.

Wallace I would also overall call OK and just OK, pretty much did the best he could in terms of trying to get equal time and enforce the rules and point out when they were being broken. I wish there was more questions about the use of the military (including that we went into Iraq, nearly went into Iran, when if ever we can bring troops back) and about trade policy/tariffs, there should be those questions in later debates.

Biden in his convention and again at the debate irritated me in blaming everything of the pandemic on Trump, his only idea for responding to the pandemic seemed to be to mandate masks (which I think many states have already done) and to give more money to schools and businesses (which is reasonable though I'm not sure how financial aid to businesses could make up for drastically reduced demand, let alone if there are increased restrictions). He didn't do well in responding to the idea that he would do a national shutdown and that would be devastating.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

It's a word used to shock or intimidate. I don't rely on either tactic. Honestly, it's the kind of thing Trump would do.

If someone saying "fuck" in regards to Donald Trump and not directed at you in any way "shocks" or "intimidates" you, can you please return your gun(s), because you're far too fragile to be going around armed.

Yes, Donald Trump does curse occasionally. You would agree that a president speaking in a public setting as a representative of the country, and me, Joe Schmo Internet, are different situations though, right? And even then, I wouldn't care unless he told the leader of an ally of ours to "go fuck themselves" or something. Which he probably has, but there are so many Trump scandals who can possibly keep track?

And your insistence on focusing on petty things like the curse words instead of the actual scary things the candidate is saying like ordering white supremacists to "stand by" and refusing to commit to a peaceful transition of power is precisely why you're incapable of distinguishing between Biden and Trump and think they're equally bad. Or don't fear a global pandemic that's killed 205,000+ Americans but are intimidated by the word "fuck" when it's not even directed at you. You lack critical thinking skills and the ability to prioritize what's actually dangerous.

Polititically, I'm far closer to Trump's position. I don't fear Covid, I don't do woke, I don't trust the nanny state, and I think gun control means using both hands to aim your Glock. Be that as it may, what I saw was appalling. Trump's handlers need to outfit him with an electric collar, so they can just push a button and zap him when he gets out of hand.

 

[Oddish]

Sigh...

I didn't say I WAS shocked or intimidated. I said that it's a tactic used to shock and intimidate. Like you're doing now, repeating the word in your posts. You think I'm offended by it, so you're rubbing my nose in it. It won't work, but by all means keep at it, it's rather amusing. Like watching middle schoolers curse to show off.

Furthermore, I didn't say they were equally bad. Trump appalls me as an individual, Biden does not. However, the Democratic party scares the crap out of me, and a Biden victory will usher it into power.

 

[Lord Garth]

My issue with Trump isn't that he's a Republican. Republicans have been President for more of my life than Democrats. My issue with him is that he's an asshole, I question his loyalty to the United States (I'm not convinced he won't put Russia first), he won't commit to a peaceful transfer of power, he doesn't and hasn't paid taxes to the government, and calls veterans suckers.

If Romney had won in 2012 or McCain won in 2008, it wouldn't have bothered me. They wouldn't have been "my" team, but I understand that the White House switches parties all the time.

Trump is a one-of-a-kind problem.

 

[XCV330]

My issue with Trump isn't that he's a Republican. Republicans have been President for more of my life than Democrats. My issue with him is that he's an asshole, I question his loyalty to the United States (I'm not convinced he won't put Russia first), he won't commit to a peaceful transfer of power, he doesn't and hasn't paid taxes to the government, and calls veterans suckers.

If Romney had won in 2012 or McCain won in 2008, it wouldn't have bothered me. They wouldn't have been "my" team, but I understand that the White House switches parties all the time.

Trump is a one-of-a-kind problem.

I felt like you, but after what has happened, I can never support a republican again. Not that I can recall ever doing so, but there were some Republican politicians that I had some respect for. They're all dead or in retirement. The party of Lincoln and TR is dead. It's just a bunch of fascists and opportunists now.

 

[think]

curious to me is how an obvious thread for TNZ is started in the misc section. and no body is really saying we should move it there?? it is .. a controversial issue and debate.. that misc used have no part of-?

anyway it seems to be all relative.. it does..--

I felt that I did not want to vote again but still worried about trump returning of office for another 4. so the next option is Biden 000 but he is not really what a president should be either.. since he should have handled trump with more grace still - these day he is physically not really up to the task of president for 4 years IMO- I want somebody that can be president.. not these guys at all--

 

[Locutus of Bored]

However, the Democratic party scares the crap out of me, and a Biden victory will usher it into power.

What about them, specifically? Don't just keep making drive-by hyperbolic comments, expand on it so there's something for people to discuss.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

curious to me is how an obvious thread for TNZ is started in the misc section. and no body is really saying we should move it there?? it is .. a controversial issue and debate.. that misc used have no part of-?

Controversial / political topics are allowed in Miscellaneous too.

 

[XCV330]

Tuvix was a fucking republican!

 

[Lord Garth]

I felt like you, but after what has happened, I can never support a republican again. Not that I can recall ever doing so, but there were some Republican politicians that I had some respect for. They're all dead or in retirement. The party of Lincoln and TR is dead. It's just a bunch of fascists and opportunists now.

It really disturbed me when Trump had the gall to call his party "The Party of Lincoln". Especially when the Ex-Confederate states support him, the KKK supports him, he defends Confederate statues, and he's trying to stop blacks from voting.

Throw into the mix saying "Which White Supremacists [should I denounce]? Give me a name." How about all of them?!

I haven't even touched on his views of Mexico, women, or minorities yet. November 3rd can't come fast enough.

 

[Oddish]

Trump is a one-of-a-kind problem.

Trump is a SYMPTOM of a catastrophically broken political system.

Donald J. Trump was not a Republican, not really. He was a third party candidate who learned a lesson from H. Ross Perot, back in 1992. It was established that a third party run for president didn't work. So, Trump basically hijacked the Republican party, and it was so incurably BROKEN, it couldn't produce a candidate capable of beating him.

Worse, the Democratic party was so equally broken, the best person it could produce couldn't beat him, either.

We have two parties. Both are broken. And other parties, like the Greens or Libertarians, don't have the power base to muscle these broken behemoths out of the way. And as a result, we have a commander in chief who once clobbered Vince McMahon at ringside at Wrestlemania.

 

[XCV330]

Trump is a SYMPTOM of a catastrophically broken political system.

Donald J. Trump was not a Republican, not really. He was a third party candidate who learned a lesson from H. Ross Perot, back in 1992. It was established that a third party run for president didn't work. So, Trump basically hijacked the Republican party, and it was so incurably BROKEN, it couldn't produce a candidate capable of beating him.

Worse, the Democratic party was so equally broken, the best person it could produce couldn't beat him, either.

We have two parties. Both are broken. And other parties, like the Greens or Libertarians, don't have the power base to muscle these broken behemoths out of the way. And as a result, we have a commander in chief who once clobbered Vince McMahon at ringside at Wrestlemania.

The Democrats gave us one of the best presidents in decades in 2008. He got millions of people health care coverage, turned the tide on what could have been an economic collapse to rival 1929, put in financial reforms, withstood a new movement designed almost entirely to thwart him, and even managed to get human spaceflight advanced by moving to new-space contracts, which we'll see benefits from far from now. He wasn't perfect. Who is? But I don't think the DNC is broken. It may have been broken for awhile but the big tent is holding up right now.