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Why the soft reboot?

Yes, I know that you knew the universe wasn't gonna get smucked. My question is why not have BOTH character moments (and don't get me started on the MANY rushed and missed character moments in PIC) . . . and a non-preordained plot?

Remember: this is my secret. Shhh.
I will add my own 2 things. Number one, Infinity War made me cry. They killed half of the universe, and it made me cry. I KNEW it was going to be undone in the next movie, but it moved me. It is possible to have "Destroy the universe" stakes and still bring emotion. Picard did this for me. Discovery did this for me at the end of season 2. It sounds to me like the problem for you isn't the stakes, it's that the story they were telling didn't work for you. That's fair, but that has nothing to do with the level of stakes. Number two, what you specifically were talking about was that prequels have no drama because the end is preordained.
HUGE dangers in a prequel = no drama. We know earth ain't gonna get creamed. Nor is the eeevi! AI gonna win (can't remember what its evil aim was, frankly) b/c the primary colored fedefation is gonna go 'splorin with the Big E and the big three in 2266 and Cheekoov in 67.
And my point was, it is that way in EVERY story, The end is ALWAYS preordained, whether you have future series to show it or not. The Earth wasn't going to be destroyed in Best of Both Worlds Part 2 any more than the earth wasn't going to be taken over by an AI at the end of Discovery season 2. Being a prequel had nothing to do with it, being a standard action adventure show was the reason.
 
It would be great if all those things are connected to the spores, like the Kelvans having some kind of access to the mycelial plane without even knowing what it is, or the Medusans having a similar brain structure as the tardigrades, or the Traveler somehow connecting with the Ja'Sepp... The Caretaker and Suspiria were sporocystians, that would be a great connection as well. And fluidic space, all organic with walking shroomheads, could be connected to the mycelial plane, etc. XD
See, I wouldn't mind such connections within the universe. I think the spores being sentient offers more potential, not less.
It is possible to have "Destroy the universe" stakes and still bring emotion. Picard did this for me. Discovery did this for me at the end of season 2. It sounds to me like the problem for you isn't the stakes, it's that the story they were telling didn't work for you. That's fair, but that has nothing to do with the level of stakes. Number two, what you specifically were talking about was that prequels have no drama because the end is preordained.
Exactly so. The characters work for me so the story works. I am guessing that if the characters do not work for others then the story won't either.

I don't think the stakes have much to do with it.
 
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I will add my own 2 things. Number one, Infinity War made me cry. They killed half of the universe, and it made me cry. I KNEW it was going to be undone in the next movie, but it moved me. It is possible to have "Destroy the universe" stakes and still bring emotion. Picard did this for me. Discovery did this for me at the end of season 2. It sounds to me like the problem for you isn't the stakes, it's that the story they were telling didn't work for you. That's fair, but that has nothing to do with the level of stakes. Number two, what you specifically were talking about was that prequels have no drama because the end is preordained.
And my point was, it is that way in EVERY story, The end is ALWAYS preordained, whether you have future series to show it or not. The Earth wasn't going to be destroyed in Best of Both Worlds Part 2 any more than the earth wasn't going to be taken over by an AI at the end of Discovery season 2. Being a prequel had nothing to do with it, being a standard action adventure show was the reason.

Outside of a gut feeling best described as ‘knowing the rules of a story’ you don’t *know* for sure in the way you do with a prequel. *maybe* Picard really was going to leave the galaxy in wrack and ruin, after all, DSC is going into post federation apocalypse territory. We didn’t *know* for sure even that Picard would live (that body should have been Data by the terms of narrative logic anyway.) because it’s the leading edge in the narrative worlds timeline.

In DSC we *always* know that there’s a relatively peaceful and prosperous federation a few years down the line, the threats carry no weight. Because of the other ‘knowing the rules’ certainty, we pretty much know which characters have plot armour too. That’s one of the problems with prequels.

Star Wars prequels are actually oddly successful...despite the audience knowing what is to come, it still succeeds for the most part in making you care for the characters to whom this failure comes. I can’t say DSC managed that for me.
 
Star Wars prequels are actually oddly successful...despite the audience knowing what is to come, it still succeeds for the most part in making you care for the characters to whom this failure comes. I can’t say DSC managed that for me.
:guffaw:

Oh, wait, you're serious up the SW prequels...:eek::wtf:

Sorry, take DSC and the SW prequels and flip it for me. I never gave a crap regarding Anakin or his fall to the Dark Side. I never thought Obi-Wan was in danger so when he is captured, or jumping out of giant skyscraper windows or falling or what not I'm like "He's not going to die."

DSC is kind of the opposite for me. I know at the macro level the Federation is fine but I have no idea how Burnham or Lorca or even Number One will turn out. There is more ambiguity there than in the SW prequels, to carry that forward.
 
Outside of a gut feeling best described as ‘knowing the rules of a story’ you don’t *know* for sure in the way you do with a prequel. *maybe* Picard really was going to leave the galaxy in wrack and ruin, after all, DSC is going into post federation apocalypse territory. We didn’t *know* for sure even that Picard would live (that body should have been Data by the terms of narrative logic anyway.) because it’s the leading edge in the narrative worlds timeline.
I always knew. Perhaps it is due to a misspent childhood watching Tom Baker Doctor Who serials on PBS as a kid where most episodes were some kind of cliffhanger. I learned pretty quickly it would always come out OK, and the fun became trying to figure out HOW the Doctor would get out of it. It even extended to the reboot series. The end of Utopia in season three, I KNEW the Doctor would fix everything, but I could not figure out how, with the TARDIS having been stolen and the barbarians at the gates, he was going to fix it. But I knew he would, he's the Doctor. In the same way, I know Picard isn't going to let the universe end, or the Borg aren't going to destroy Earth, or the Avengers aren't going to leave half of the universe dead, or Sherlock wasn't going to come back after jumping off of the roof, or Hiro wasn't going to stay stuck in feudal Japan. If it were a show like The Walking Dead, a darker, grimmer show, then yes. But almost all heroic fiction aren't going to let the good guys lose.
 
Disney Star Wars has increased my opinion of the prequels, but only insofar as even though they were failures, they at least failed in a unique way that you don't see modern big-budget films failing in.
I guess. It just wasn't enjoyable, even as a failure. It's beautiful to look at...and that's it. So, not exactly what I want from a film.

Discovery, for its missteps, has at least characters I give a crap about.
 
ENT Twilight had a grip on me like nothing else. From the opening to the reset. And I freaked out at the final moments of S3. All regardless of knowing that things would be fine later - but there was a temporal cold war happening, so that wasn't really certain.
 
I always knew. Perhaps it is due to a misspent childhood watching Tom Baker Doctor Who serials on PBS as a kid where most episodes were some kind of cliffhanger. I learned pretty quickly it would always come out OK, and the fun became trying to figure out HOW the Doctor would get out of it. It even extended to the reboot series. The end of Utopia in season three, I KNEW the Doctor would fix everything, but I could not figure out how, with the TARDIS having been stolen and the barbarians at the gates, he was going to fix it. But I knew he would, he's the Doctor. In the same way, I know Picard isn't going to let the universe end, or the Borg aren't going to destroy Earth, or the Avengers aren't going to leave half of the universe dead, or Sherlock wasn't going to come back after jumping off of the roof, or Hiro wasn't going to stay stuck in feudal Japan. If it were a show like The Walking Dead, a darker, grimmer show, then yes. But almost all heroic fiction aren't going to let the good guys lose.

But that’s the point. Those rules *can* be broken, but *not* if it’s a prequel. The universe has to maintain consistency within its own narrative. Suspension of disbelief. We might always know the hero will win, because ‘story rules, and the actors signed on for three years’ but that’s not what’s going on in the fictional universe. Ignoring those rules, can we really say DSC is a world in which anything can happen? No. We have seen what happens later, so a different approach to ‘OMG the earth is in peril!’ Style high stakes. In Picard it was at least a possibility he would fail, in DSC it’s a certainty they won’t.
 
Disney Star Wars has increased my opinion of the prequels, but only insofar as even though they were failures, they at least failed in a unique way that you don't see modern big-budget films failing in.

Say what you like, but George was trying for *something* and *something new* even if it went a bit bosoms skyward.
 
Say what you like, but George was trying for *something* and *something new* even if it went a bit bosoms skyward.

My two cents is Lucas is a good story guy and producer, but a bad scriptwriter and director. And even he was aware of this.

If he had hired an outside writer to rewrite all his dialogue, and had an outside director to ensure the films didn't have so many "people talking while walking through corridors" - along with a casting director who could hire better actors for Anakin - the prequels would be a lot more fondly regarded.
 
But that’s the point. Those rules *can* be broken, but *not* if it’s a prequel. The universe has to maintain consistency within its own narrative. Suspension of disbelief. We might always know the hero will win, because ‘story rules, and the actors signed on for three years’ but that’s not what’s going on in the fictional universe. Ignoring those rules, can we really say DSC is a world in which anything can happen? No. We have seen what happens later, so a different approach to ‘OMG the earth is in peril!’ Style high stakes. In Picard it was at least a possibility he would fail, in DSC it’s a certainty they won’t.
Then I don't understand why Titanic was the biggest movie in the world for a decade. Knowing everything will be ok in a macro sense, or in that case not be ok, is not an impediment to drama, otherwise you could never do a historical movie. I KNOW World War 2 came out OK, yet I had no problem enjoying Saving Private Ryan. I KNOW American won the cold war, but The Americans was gripping drama. Heroic fiction is no different. It's not the macro stakes, but the micro stakes that count. We know the Federation is going to be OK, but is Burnham? Or Saru? Or, in the case of the end of season 2, Cornwell?
 
We know the Federation is going to be OK, but is Burnham? Or Saru? Or, in the case of the end of season 2, Cornwell?
Exactly. It's all about character investment. Prequels can work if the characters are engaging for the audience member. That's why different films and shows work differently for different people. Another prequel that I think works really well is the Freelancer Chronicles for the web series Red vs. Blue. We knew some of the characters and we knew some would make it since this prequel chapter took place I think 10 seasons after the show. But, we were invested in the characters and they took some risks with playing around with it.

It's completely doable-but you have to be invested in the characters and not get lost in the macro view.
 
It's not the macro stakes, but the micro stakes that count. We know the Federation is going to be OK, but is Burnham? Or Saru? Or, in the case of the end of season 2, Cornwell?

Where it becomes problematic, for me at least, is when I don't really care about the characters to any degree. I didn't care if they died, so the macro stakes are all that's left, and we know everything turns out okay.
 
I'm sorry that people don't connect with the characters.

You didn’t write it. Stuff works for some folks and not for others. Life goes on, careening us all towards our pressboard coffins, regardless of our personal takes on all of this.
 
Then I don't understand why Titanic was the biggest movie in the world for a decade. Knowing everything will be ok in a macro sense, or in that case not be ok, is not an impediment to drama, otherwise you could never do a historical movie. I KNOW World War 2 came out OK, yet I had no problem enjoying Saving Private Ryan. I KNOW American won the cold war, but The Americans was gripping drama. Heroic fiction is no different. It's not the macro stakes, but the micro stakes that count. We know the Federation is going to be OK, but is Burnham? Or Saru? Or, in the case of the end of season 2, Cornwell?

Do you think Titanic is *about* the Titanic? No. It is about Jack and Rose. The Titanic is the historical setting, and it is about it insofar as it is about showing us a recreation of a point in history. That’s pretty much all historical fiction in a nutshell...making a character drama for one chunk of the audience, and some recreated detail for another, sometimes they even both appeal to the same people. There’s the third group, nitpickers, who go to see what they got wrong. Titanic isn’t about real people, and it’s sinking is just something that happens as a background to the drama. A very well detailed and thought out background, but always secondary to the drama. We know the boat is going to sink, and given the beginning of the film, we even know it’s unlikely Jack survives...what the film does is make you care.

‘Based on true events’ films are the same thing...some Will juice some extra fiction in to tell a story using history as it’s setting, some with outright lies (U571, Black Hawk Down, Braveheart.... XD) usually with a propagandist element. Some will be as faithful as they can be to real events, because they are drawing attention to those real events and the inherent drama. They are interesting because they are *real*. (And you still get nitpickers, my father is one xD)

Star Trek isn’t real, which means it *has* to at least look like its keeping its continuity more or less intact, otherwise it starts to break its illusion. It’s very much apples and oranges. 1917 is not a prequel to The Dambusters, just because they take place in the same universe (ie the real world) whereas Revenge of the Sith is a prequel to A New Hope. The stakes can be high in a WW2 film, because we *knew* they were high, for real. It’s a window into a world that’s gone but shaped ours, not a window into one someone just made up.

The nitpickers are useful in this regard, because, for them, the historical fiction breaks down exactly the way Trek does when it does something silly. Let’s make it something obvious, rather than say picking on Pearl Harbour or U571 (though that in particular is a fine example of it) let’s imagine a film ‘based on true events’ that has the US enter the war in 1940. You don’t need to be a WW2 history buff to know that’s wrong, and suddenly you don’t believe in the fiction any more. Your disbelief is no longer suspended. The more liberties taken, the more things fall apart. ‘True event’ narratives are a different beast to wholly fictional worlds, ‘historical fiction’ is different again. DSC and to a lesser extent ENT are both attempts at ‘historical fiction’ in a fictional universe, but don’t take into account exactly why this is almost impossible to make work in the Trek milieu.
Star Wars ironically will have less of a problem, because it’s already Science Fantasy. It doesn’t pretend to be our future.

Now, Alternate History is much easier sell, and For All Mankind is textbook for doing to the real world what they seemed at one one point to be aiming for in DSC. But once they chose to place DSC in Prime continuity, their goose was cooked.
 
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