TOS Chronology

[Mytran]

And I can't help wondering how to make the interval of 3.3 stardates last much longer than the actually time shown onscreen between them during the episode."

One option is that there is some sort of delay between Kirk making his captain's log at stardate 3198.4 and them decided to beam down.
What exactly were they doing for 3 entire stardate units? Dunno

The other option is that Kirk's second log was recorded after the events of the episode and that he simply forgot to use the past tense. Let's face it, he was pretty inconsistent with his tenses several times throughout Season One.

 

[Tenacity]

Kirk accidentialyl sends himself to the magnetic corridor and then to the antimatter universe

At this point is "our" Kirk composed of aniti-matter?

 

[Henoch]

At this point is "our" Kirk composed of aniti-matter?

I think yes. Dilithium was used in the gateway device. Perhaps, dilithium has the properties to transpose matter (or matter stream) into antimatter (hence a possible fuel cycle for the M/AM reactor), or maybe it's a natural property of the magnetic corridor to change the spin of the quarks making up that person's atoms. Simultaneously, the dilithium provided the high energy required to push a person completely through the "magnetic corridor" into the other universe like a super transporter.

Without dilithium, their ships only had the power to push someone into the magnetic corridor. Once one person was in the corridor and out of its universe, it automatically sucks in its equal but opposite person to conserve or balance the mass of the opposite universe. Hence, both men meet in the corridor. Once one man exits the corridor on the opposite side of the corridor, the other is ejected into the other universe. Of course, if one of the men want to stop the other from exiting to his side, then they can fight it out and try to stop him. It's a theory, at least.

 

[MAGolding]

What to Make of TOS Season One Stardates.

So what would someone think about the stardates in Season One of TOS, if they recorded them all and figured out how much time passed between stardates in different episodes?

If they believed that TOS episodes happened in original broadcast order they would see that stardates sometimes decreased in value as well as increasing in value. So if they assumed that episodes happened in an average separation in time, such as one week or two weeks or three weeks or four weeks apart, they could plot the value of stardates over time.

They could also plot the value of hour many hours per stardate there were at various times. They could convert each figure to stardate units or fractions of them per hour. Thus they could plot how rapidly or slowly stardates increased and sometimes decreased over time.

And they would hope that the two graphs would produce curves that agreed with each other.

Thus they might deduce that stardates represented the strength of some factor that varied over time. That factor could be the strength of a factor that multiplied or divided warp speeds, making ships travel faster or slower than they normally would at their warp factors.

Thus a higher stardate might indicate a faster speed and a shorter voyage time, or maybe a higher stardate might indicate a longer voyage time and a slower speed.

So they could have tried plotting stardates against the speeds of voyages in various episodes where those speeds could be calculated and the stated warp factors of those voyages to see how well they correlated.

And if that hypothetical viewer had thought that the episodes might possibly happen in production order, once they found out what the production order was, they could have tried plotting the first season of TOS stardates against the production order to see how well they correlated.

Or that hypothetical fan might have assumed that TOS season one episodes happened in production order. Thus they would assume that the stardates got higher with each successive episode. However, the ratio of hours per stardate unit, or of stardate units per hour, would change over time, so there would still be a curve to be graphed.

Or maybe they might assume that too much happens in TOS to all happen in one timeline. Maybe they would decide that almost every episode happens in an alternate universe from the other episodes, with the exception of episodes that are clearly sequels to other episodes.

So they might explain the differing lengths of stardate units by assuming that Starfleet adopts different stardate systems in different alternate universes, with different ratios of stardate units to time.

They might assume that a stardate unit equaled a day, a 24 hour period, and thus that a stardate unit equaled 24 hours. But they might also assume that a stardate unit equaled a duty watch period aboard ship. There might be two, three, or four watches per 24 hour day, and so possibly a stardate unit equaled 12, 8, or 6 hours.

In "The Conscience of the King" several scenes happen during, one, two, or three night periods aboard the Enterprise. Captain Kirk gives Lenore Karidian a tour of the ship, and on the observation deck:

LENORE: Did you order the soft lights especially for the occasion?
KIRK: If I had ordered soft lights, I'd also have arranged for music and flowers. Unfortunately, it isn't so. On the Enterprise, we try to duplicate earth conditions of night and day as closely as possible.

in a later scene, Lt. Kevin Riley is on duty alone in the engine room, probably during a night period.

[Engineering]

(There's just one officer on duty, and he hasn't touched the meal lying on a plate nearby)
RILEY: Hey. Rec room. Somebody.

In a third scene, the Karidian players perform Hamlet for the crew.

[Ship's Theatre]

LENORE: (on stage) Tonight, the Karidian Players present Hamlet, another in a series of living plays presented in space, dedicated to the tradition of classic theatre. Hamlet is a violent play about violent times when life was cheap and ambition was God.

So if they turn the lights up and down in public spaces to mimic the daily cycle on Earth, they don't have to mimic it precisely. Humans could probably adjust quite well to a daily cycle which was between 23.0 and 25.0 hours long instead of exactly 24.0 hours long.

So if a stardate unit is equal a a watch that is one quarter of a 23.0 to 25.0 hour ship's day, the stardate unit would be equal to 5.75 to 6.25 Earth hours; if the watch is equal to a third of a ship's day the watch could be equal to 7.666 to 8.333 Earth hours; if the watch is equal to half a ship's day, the watch could be equal to 11.5 to 12.5 Earth hours; if the watch is equal to a full ship's day it would equal 23.0 to 25.0 Earth hours.

And if humans could function well with a ship's day somewhere between 22.0 and 26.0 hours, a watch a quarter of a ship's day would be between 5.5 and 6.5 Earth hours; a watch a third of ship's day would between 7.333 and 8.666 Earth hours; a watch half a ship's day would be between 11.0 and 13.0 Earth hours; and a full ship's day would be between 22.0 and 26.0 hours.

So maybe we can try fitting the various lengths of stardate units into 5.5 to 6.5 Earth hours, 7.333 to 8.666 Earth horse, 11.0 to 13.0 Earth hours, or 22.0 to 26.0 Earth hours.

"Errand of Mercy" seems to have much shorter stardate units, 1.51 to 6.06 minutes, than any such range.

In "Mudd's Women" there might be 2.0 to 2.22 hours in a stardate unit, or possibly more.

In "The Squire of Gothos" there might be 5.0 hours in a stardate unit, which almost makes it to 5.5.

Episodes with Stardate lengths consistent with 5.5 to 6.5 Earth hours include: "The Enemy Within", "Mudd's Women", "The Conscience of the King", "Shore Leave", "The Return of the Archons", "The Alternative Factor", and "Operation - Annihilate!".

Episodes with stardate lengths consistent with 7.333 to 8.666 Earth hours include: "The Enemy Within", "Mudd's Women", "The Conscience of the King", "Shore Leave", "Tomorrow is Yesterday", "The Return of the Archons", "The Alternative Factor", and "Operation - Annihilate!".

Episodes with stardate lengths consistent with 11.0 to 13.0 Earth hours include: "Where No Man Has Gone Before:, "The Naked Time", "The Enemy Within", "Mudd's Women", "The Menagerie", "The Conscience of the King", "Tomorrow is Yesterday", "The Return of the Archons", "Space seed", "This Side of Paradise", "The Alternative Factor", and possibly "Operation - Annihilate!".

Episodes with stardate lengths consistent with 22.0 to 26.0 Earth hours include: "Where No Man Has Gone Before:, "The Naked Time", "Mudd's Women", "Miri", "Dagger of the Mind", "The Conscience of the King", "Shore Leave", "The Galileo 7", "Court Martial", "The Return of the Archons", "Space seed", "This Side of Paradise", "The Alternative Factor", and possibly "Operation - Annihilate!".

There should be fewer than 68.6 Earth hours in a stardate unit in "the Man Trap", fewer than 47.38 hours in "Balance of Terror", fewer than 48 Earth hours in "A Taste of Armageddon", making each of them consistent with each of the ranges of 5.5 to 6.5 Earth hours, 7.333 to 8.666 Earth horse, 11.0 to 13.0 Earth hours, or 22.0 to 26.0 Earth hours.

The stardate length of 14.1666 Earth hours from "The Squire of Gothos" doesn't fit in any of those ranges. But a stardate length of about 5 hours is also calculated from "The Squire of Gothos" Finding a way to the two calculations to agree may eliminate the 14.1666 hour figure.

The stardate length of about 5 hours from "The Squire of Gothos" is much more precise than most of the length ranges from episodes. It almost reaches to the 5.5 to 6.5 hour range. if a ship's day could be between 20.0 and 28.0 Earth hours, 5 hours could fit in with a quarter day watch. Thus a stardate unit about 5 hours long would fit in with "The Naked Time", "The Enemy Within", "Mudd's Women", "Shore Leave", "The Return of the Archons", "The Alternative Factor", and "Operation - Annihilate!".

The stardate length of about 11.25 hours from "The Corbomite Maneuver" would be consistent with: "Charlie X", "Where No Man Has Gone Before", "The Naked Time", "The Enemy Within", "The Conscience of the King", "Shore Leave", "Tomorrow is Yesterday", "The Return of the Archons", "Space seed", "This Side of Paradise", "The Alternative Factor", and possibly "Operation - Annihilate!" and possibly with "Mudd's Women" with some stretching.

The stardate length of about 22.8 Earth hours from "The Galileo 7" is consistent with "Where No Man Has Gone Before:, "The Naked Time", "Mudd's Women", "Dagger of the Mind", "The Menagerie", "The Galileo 7", "Court Martial", "The Return of the Archons", "Space seed", "This Side of Paradise", "and The Alternative Factor".

"The Man Trap", "Balance of Terror", and a "A Taste of Armageddon" would be consistent with any of the 5 hour, 11.25 , or 22.8 hour lengths.

And stardate lengths can not be calculated for "What are little Girls Made of?", "Arena", "The Devil in the Dark", and "The City on the Edge of Forever".

So that leaves only "Errand of Mercy" with stardate units which at first sight appear to be only minutes long, And "Miri", with stardate units at least 23.9 hours long, as episode which seem to be inconsistent with stardate units being either about 5 hours long, or about 11.25 hours long, or about 22.8 hours long.

I note that 11.25 hours is half of 22.50 hours, and 22.8 hours is twice 11.4 hours, so possibly there is a ships's day about 22.5 to 22.8 hours long, and a half day watch about 11.25 to 11.4 hours long. And possibly "Miri" is in an alternate universe where a ship's day is set about at least 23.9 hours. And possibly the stardate unit of about 5 hours is equal to a watch that is one fifth of a 25 hour ship's day.

So it seems to be possible to have no more than 5 stardate systems in the first season of TOS, no doubt adopted in various alternate universes, and the majority of episodes would fit in no more than three stardate systems.

 

[MAGolding]

At this point is "our" Kirk composed of aniti-matter?

The problem with such a question is that "The Alternative Factor" anti-matter seems to be rather different from regular Star Trek anti-matter and from scientific anti-matter.

I think yes. Dilithium was used in the gateway device. Perhaps, dilithium has the properties to transpose matter (or matter stream) into antimatter (hence a possible fuel cycle for the M/AM reactor), or maybe it's a natural property of the magnetic corridor to change the spin of the quarks making up that person's atoms. Simultaneously, the dilithium provided the high energy required to push a person completely through the "magnetic corridor" into the other universe like a super transporter.

Without dilithium, their ships only had the power to push someone into the magnetic corridor. Once one person was in the corridor and out of its universe, it automatically sucks in its equal but opposite person to conserve or balance the mass of the opposite universe. Hence, both men meet in the corridor. Once one man exits the corridor on the opposite side of the corridor, the other is ejected into the other universe. Of course, if one of the men want to stop the other from exiting to his side, then they can fight it out and try to stop him. It's a theory, at least.

Regular normal antimatter is composed of anti particles, sub atomic particles which posses properties which are reversed from those of their corresponding subatomic particles of our matter. when an anti particle collides with its opposite particle of our matter the two particles annihilate each other and produce energy equivalent to their combined mass. Since positrons and electrons are all identical, any positron and any electron will annihilate each other when they meet. Since all protons and all anti protons are identical, any proton and any anti proton will annihilate each other when they meet.

So when an object made of gazillions of anti particles is in our universe surrounded by particles of our matter, it will constantly be interacting with neighboring particles of our matter, and there will be a constant annihilation process, producing energy in the form of hard radiation. The same goes for an object made of our type of particles in an antimatter universe.

But in "The Alternative Factor" the two Lazaruses are described as being particles, one of our matter and the other of antimatter, instead of each being made of gazillions of particles. Apparently the strange type of matter that is called "anti matter" in "The Alternative Factor" is very different from what is called anti matter everywhere else.

The "anti matter" in "The Alternative Factor" is probably a much more exotic form of matter than ant-matter, and it is probably called anti matter through an inaccurate trnaslation of its 23rd century name into 20th century English.

Apparently nothing much happens when subatomic particles of that "anti matter" come in contact with subatomic particles of matter. But macroscopic objects, specifically a person and his double from the other universe, do count as particles for the purpose of mutual annihilation.

So possibly "anti matter Lazarus" wouldn't be constantly emitting gamma rays while in our universe, and Kirk would not be constantly emitting gamma rays in the "Anti matter Universe".

If matter-anti matter interactions worked the same way in "The Alternative Factor" as in the rest of Star Trek, or as in real science, an anti matter Lazarus in an atmosphere of matter, or a matter Kirk in an anti matter atmosphere, would soon burn up. So it would be very necessary for Kirk to be switched to anti matter while in the anti matter universe, and for anti matter Lazarus to be switched to matter while in our universe.

The relation between the matter Lazarus and the anti matter Lazarus is in some ways similar to the relationship between people in our universe and their doubles in "Mirror, Mirror" and between people and their anti matter doubles in the Lost in Space episode "The Antimatter Man".

 

[Tenacity]

The problem with such a question is that "The Alternative Factor" anti-matter seems to be rather different from regular Star Trek anti-matter and from scientific anti-matter.

This of course, maybe less "antimatter" and more "different matter.' When kirk said antimatter and Laz said yes, possiblty his words were more "yeah, sure, uh huh, whatever."

What to Make of TOS Season One Stardates.

Roddenberry once said that stardates aren't just timekeeping, but also incorporated time dialation and physical location.

But Gene said a lot of interesting things.

 

[Henoch]

Roddenberry once said that stardates aren't just timekeeping, but also incorporated time dialation and physical location.

I wonder how long was their 5 year mission after you consider time dilation? If 5 years ship time, then did 10-100 years pass on Earth? No wonder Kirk's twin brother Sam looked so old...

 

[MAGolding]

I wonder how long was their 5 year mission after you consider time dilation? If 5 years ship time, then did 10-100 years pass on Earth? No wonder Kirk's twin brother Sam looked so old...

I doubt if there was much time dilation during the five year mission since the Enterprise didn't travel at relativistic speeds - under, but close to, the speed of light - very often. But It is possible that the Enterprise crew experienced much less time aboard the ship than elapsed on a planet like Earth, due to various science fiction events happening to the ship.

There are a few episodes in the era of TNG which mention the time since TOs or the TOS movies.

In 1987, there were statements that TNG would be 78 years after the era of Kirk. And I don't know whether those statements mean that TNG would be 78 years after the first episode of TOS, 78 years after the last episode of TOS, 78 years after TAS, 78 years after TMP, 78 years after WOK, SFS, TVH, and TFF, or 78 years after TUC.

In the first TNG episode "Encounter at Farpoint" Data talks to an elderly Starfleet admiral who looks a lot like Dr. Leonard McCoy.

MCCOY: Troubles me? What's so damned troubling about not having died? How old do you think I am?
DATA: One hundred thirty seven years, Admiral, according to Starfleet records.

Assuming that the Admiral is McCoy, and assuming that McCoy was a specific age in a specific Star Trek production, subtracting one age from the other would give the number of years between the two productions. That is assuming, of course, that the number of years McCoy lived and aged between the two productions was the same as the number of years which passed on Earth during the interval, which is not certain to be the case in science fiction.

In the first season of TNG "The Naked Now" was said to be decades after "The Naked Time", in the first season of TOS, and thus probably fewer than one hundred years later. Of course one could always suppose that there was actually more than a century between the two episodes and Picard underestimated the time span. I note that Mr. Scott also mentioned "The Naked Time" in "Relics".

Each season of TNG was said to occupy a year of unspecified type, and stardates advanced at a rate of 1,000 stardates per each of those years, each year and season beginning at __000.0 and ending at __999.9.

In the TNG second season episode "The Emissary":

K'EHLEYR: Haven't changed a bit. Well, I missed you, too. Two days ago, Starbase Three Three Six received an automated transmission from a Klingon ship, the T'Ong. That ship was sent out over seventy five years ago.
RIKER: When the Federation and the Klingon Empire were still at war.
K'EHLEYR: The message was directed to the Klingon High Command. It said only that the ship was returning home and was about to reach its awakening point.
PICARD: Which suggests that the crew had been in cryogenic sleep for that long journey.
K'EHLEYR: Exactly.
RIKER: And when this crew is revived?
K'EHLEYR: We'll have a ship full of Klingons who think the war is still going on.

If the T'Ong was sent over 75 years earlier, that should have been between 75 and 80 years earlier. Thus peace which the Klingons should have existed for about 75 years by the second season of TNG. And that peace should have begun at the Khitomer Conference in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, though that movie hadn't been made yet when "The Emissary" was made.

In the second season episode "Journey to Babel" of TOS, Dr. McCoy asked Sarek about his age:

MCCOY: Mister Ambassador, I understand you had retired before this conference was called. Forgive my curiosity, but as a doctor, I'm interested in Vulcan physiology. Isn't it unusual for a Vulcan to retire at your age? After all, you're only a hundred and two.
SAREK: One hundred two point four three seven precisely, Doctor, measured in your years. I had other concerns.

In "Sarek", a third season episode of TNG, Ambassador Sarek visits the ship.

RIKER: The way Mendrossen described him, I expected to see a frail old man.
PICARD: I hope I'm that frail when I'm two hundred and two years old. But his aides did seem to be a little overprotective, didn't they?

If Sarek gave his age in Earth years in "Journey to Babel" and if he is 202 Earth years old in "Sarek", "Sarek" should be sometime between 99.563 and 100.562 Earth years after "Journey to Babel".

In the fifth season of TNG the episodes "Unification Part 1" and "Unification Part 2", 4 November and 11 November 1991, were tied into the movie Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, which was released soon afterwards.

Captain's log, stardate 45236.4. As I study the intelligence reports on Ambassador Spock's disappearance, I cannot help but feel a deeper, more personal concern about this mission, for I know this man through his father. It was barely a year ago that I shared a mind meld with the Vulcan, Sarek. Now we must meet again as I attempt to find an explanation for his son's actions.

If "Unification Part 1" is "barely a year" after "Sarek", that might be between 1.0 and 1.5 Earth years, thus putting "Unification Part 1" about 100.563 to 102.062 years after "Journey to Babel".

When Picard asked Sarek what business Spock could have had on Romulus:

PICARD: Is there anyone on Romulus he might know, or choose to contact?
SAREK: Pardek?
PICARD: Who is Pardek?
SAREK: It could be Pardek.
PICARD: Who is Pardek?
SAREK: He is a Romulan Senator. Spock has maintained a relationship with him over the years. I don't know how they met. At the Khitomer Conference, I'd imagine.
PICARD: Pardek represented Romulus?
SAREK: Yes, I'm sure he did. In fact, I recall Spock coming to me with optimism about a continuing dialogue with the Romulans. I told him it was illogical to maintain such an expectation. Spock was always so impressionable. This Romulan, Pardek, had no support at home. Of course, in the end I was proven correct. I gave Spock the benefit of experience, of logic. He never listened. Never listened.

So this indicates that Spock and Pardek probably met at the Khitomer Conference.

When Picard meets Spock:

PICARD: Why would you not bring something so important to the attention of your own people or the Federation?
SPOCK: A personal decision, Captain. Perhaps you are aware of the small role I played in the overture to peace with the Klingons.
PICARD: History is aware of the role you played, Ambassador.
SPOCK: Not entirely. It was I who committed Captain Kirk to that peace mission, and I who had to bear the responsibility for the consequences to him and his crew. Quite simply, I am unwilling to risk anyone's life but my own on this occasion. So I ask you respect my wishes and leave.

Later Pardek says:

PARDEK: Spock, we've been friends for eighty years.

So possibly, repeat possibly, Pardek meant that they had met and become friends at the Khitomer Conference sometime between 75 and 85 Earth years earlier, which would determine the time span between Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country and "Unification", and also the possible time span between "Journey to Babel" and Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

In Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, when Kirk and McCoy are tried by the Klingons:

CHANG (on viewscreen): Doctor McCoy, would you be so good as to tell me your current medical status?
McCOY (on viewscreen): Aside from a touch of arthritis, I'd say pretty good.
CHANG (on viewscreen): You have a singular wit, Doctor.
McCOY (on viewscreen): For twenty-seven years I have been ship's Surgeon aboard the U.S.S. Enterprise. In three months I stand down.

McCoy does not specify whether he first became surgeon of the Enterprise 27 years earlier, or if he was surgeon on the Enterprise on and off for a total of 27 years spread over a larger number of years. I note that Kirk was not aboard the Enterprise for at least 2.5 years before star Trek: The Motion Picture, and McCoy was also not aboard the Enterprise for part or all of that at least 2.5 years.

In "Relics", an episode in the 6th season of TNG:

DATA: Captain, I have identified the signal. It is from the USS Jenolen, a Federation transport ship reported missing in this sector seventy five years ago.
RIKER: Code one alpha zero. Ship in distress.

On the Jenolan they find the transporter system is still operating with someone's pattern n the pattern buffer:

LAFORGE: There's a pattern in the buffer still.
RIKER: It's completely intact. There's less than point zero zero three percent signal degradation. How is that possible?
LAFORGE: I don't know. I've never seen a transporter jury-rigged like this.
RIKER: Could someone survive inside a transporter buffer for seventy five years?
LAFORGE: I know a way to find out.
(The portly, silver-haired, late middle-aged figure of a certain starship chief engineer materialises. He is wearing a TOS movie era uniform and his left arm in a sling)

It's Montgomery Scott.

RIKER: I'm Commander William Riker, starship Enterprise. Lieutenant Commander Geordi La Forge.
SCOTT: The Enterprise? I should have known. I bet Jim Kirk himself hauled the old girl out of mothballs to come looking for me. Captain Montgomery Scott. Tell me, how long have I been missing?

LAFORGE: I think you're going to enjoy the twenty fourth century, Mister Scott. We've made some pretty incredible advances these last eighty years.

CRUSHER: Other than a couple of bumps and bruises, I'd say you feel fine for a man of a hundred and forty seven.
SCOTT: I don't feel a day over a hundred and twenty.
PICARD: I must say, I was little surprised when Commander Riker told me that you were aboard the Jenolen. Our records didn't show you listed as a member of the crew.
SCOTT: Well, I was never actually a member of the crew. I was just a passenger. I was heading for Norpin Five to settle down and enjoy my retirement.

If Scott was born 140 years earlier and was suspended in a transporter for 75 or 80 years, he would have been 60 to 65 when the Jenolan was lost.. Subtracting his age at the time of TOS - if it had been mentioned - from 60 to 65 would give the possible interval between TOS and the loss of the Jenolan, unless there were some periods in that interval that Scott did not live or age through due to science fiction events.

And Scott was apparently just recently retired when the Jenolan was lost.

Later:

SCOTT: I was a Starfleet engineer for fifty two years, Mister La Forge. I think I'm still useful.

If Scott was 60 to 65 when lost on the Jenolan and a starfleet engineer for 52 years before that, he would have become a Starfleet Engineer aged 8 to 13. So either he was a really young Starfleet engineer or he was older than 60 to 65 when he was lost on the Jenolan, thus giving more possible time between TOS and the loss of the Jenolan.

Picard tells Scott:

PICARD: Seventy five years is a long time. If you would care to study some technical schematics or

LAFORGE: I don't know. It seems like some of it's held together pretty well.
SCOTT: A century out of date. It's just obsolete.
LAFORGE: Well you know, that's interesting because I was just thinking that a lot of these systems haven't changed much in the last seventy five years. This transporter is basically the same system we use on the Enterprise. Subspace radio and sensors still operate under the same basic principle. Impulse engine design hasn't changed much in the last two hundred years. If it wasn't for all the structural damage, this ship might still be in service today.

LAFORGE: Exactly. The Enterprise, when they saw that terminal, they probably did the same thing you did seventy five years ago. Opened a channel. Only this time they triggered something that activated that hatch and pulled the ship inside the sphere

So that makes five statements indicating that the time since the Jenolan was lost was 75 years and one indicating that it was 80 years.

Since the TNG era part of Star Trek Generations is a direct sequel to the TOS era part of Star Trek Generations , where Scott is aboard the Enterprise B when Kirk is seemingly killed, it is strange that Scott assumes that Kirk is alive and came to his rescue. It may be possible to come up with a theory that "Relics" and Star Trek Generations happen in alternate universes where Scott and/or Kirk have different fates. The only other theory I have heard is that Scott's memory of Kirk's loss might have been lost while he was in the transporter pattern buffer for 75 years.

So chronologists should be careful in deciding when the 75 years that Scott was in the pattern buffer began relative to the TOS era movies.

In the beginning of Star Trek Generations several retired Enterprise officers are attending the launch of the new Enterprise B, when Kirk is sucked into the Nexus, which is travelling through the galaxy near Earth.

The new Captain of the Enterprise B, Harriman, tells Kirk:

HARRIMAN: I just want you to know how excited we all are to have a group of living legends with us on our maiden voyage. ...I remember reading about your missions when I was in grade school.

Harriman was portrayed by Alan Ruck, born 1 July 1956, who was not yet 38 when his scenes were filmed in 1994. If Harriman was the same age as Ruck,he would have been in grade school about 25 to 32 years earlier. So Kirk's missions in command of the Enterprise became publicly known so that grade school kids could read about them at least 25 years before this scene in Star Trek Generations, and they became known an unspecified short or long time after they happened.

JOURNALIST #1: Captain, ...this is the first Starship Enterprise in thirty years without James T. Kirk in command. How do you feel about that, sir?

If the journalist didn't round off the years, that would be three more years than the 27 years McCoy mentioned he had been surgeon aboard the Enterprise in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. Those three years might have been distributed between the time when Kirk was captain of the Enterprise before McCoy became surgeon on the Enterprise, any hypothetical times when Kirk was captain of the Enterprise and McCoy was not the surgeon, and the time between Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. and the launch of the Enterprise B.

So there could have been between zero and three years between Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country and this scene in Star Trek Generations.

I note that Kirk was not aboard the Enterprise for at least 2.5 years before star Trek: The Motion Picture, and McCoy was also not aboard the Enterprise for part or all of that at least 2.5 years. Admiral Kirk was also not the captain of the Enterprise for an unknown period of time stretching from sometime before Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan to the end of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.

So did the Journalist mean that Kirk first became captain of the Enterprise about 30 years before that and only a few persons, such as Willard Decker and Spock, had been captain of an Enterprise for periods totally a few yeers during that 30 years? Or did the journalist mean that Kirk had been the captain of the Enterprise for 30 years on and off, and the few years that people like Decker and Spock were captain of the Enterprise were not counted in his thirty years? Or did the Journalist mean that Kirk had been the Captain of the Enterprise A for about 30 years since the ending of Star trek IV: The Voyage Home?.

After they find out that Kirk was sucked into the Nexus, the scene fades and a title card says:

78 Years Later

And the TNG era part of Star Trek Generations begins.

Later:

DATA (OC): According to our information, the ribbon is a conflux of temporal energy which travels through this galaxy every thirty-nine point one years. It will pass through this sector in approximately forty-two hours.

So this should be two passages of the energy ribbon, or 78.2 years after Kirk was lost. And so the creators of Star Trek finally made a specific TNG era production that was clearly 78 years after a specific TOS era production.

In "Trials and Tribble-ations" broadcast on 4 November 1996, in the 5th season of DS9, Dulmer and Lucsly from the Department of Temporal Investigations question Sisko about his recent trip back in time to Space Station K-7 during "The Trouble with Tribbles" episode in the second season of TOS.

DULMUR: The man was a menace. What was the date of your arrival?
SISKO: Stardate 4523.7.
DULMUR: A hundred and five years, one month, and twelve days ago.
LUCSLY: A Friday.

So according to Dulmur and Lucsly, they questioned Sisko 105 years, one month, and twelve days after Sisko arrived in the past during "The Trouble with Tribbles" during the second season of TOS.

Since "Trials and Tribble-ations" should have been about 9 years after "The Naked Now", "The Naked Now" should have been about 96 years after "The Trouble with Tribbles" during the second season of TOS. Since "The Naked Now" was said to be "decades" after "The Naked Time", which should be less than 100 years, there should be about 4 years or less between "The Naked Time" and "The Trouble with Tribbles", limiting the possible duration of the hypothetical time skip.

In "Flashback", broadcast on 11 September 1996, an episode of the 3rd season of VOY, Tuvok has flashbacks to being about the Excelsior under Captain Sulu during Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

JANEWAY: There must be some reason why your mind brought us here. Maybe this memory is connected to the girl in some way. How long ago is this?
TUVOK: Stardate 9521, approximately eighty years ago.
JANEWAY: Who were you fighting?
TUVOK: The Klingons.

So in "Unification" Pardek says he and Spock have been friends for 80 years, and they probably met in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, and in "Flashback" which should be five years later the more precise Tuvok says it has been approximately 80 years since Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. So one might b guess that Pardek said 80 years when it was actually only 77 or 78 years, and Tuvok said approximately 80 years when it was actually 82 or 83 years.

And I think that is all the evidence about the length of time between various TOS era productions and various TNG productions. And also all of the evidence about how many or how few years the TOS productions could be spread out among according to the elapsed time to various TNG era productions.

And I guess that it would be fairly easy to make the 5 year mission be spread out over a ten year span, but much harder to make it spread out over a span of a hundred years.

 

[johnnybear]

I always think that Scotty momentarily forgot about Kirk's demise in the Nexus when he was first beamed aboard from the pattern buffer! And the 80 years since must be the characters rounding it about to the nearest ten as no one not even the writers could know every minutiae of Trek lore which is even now being rewritten!
JB

 

[MAGolding]

kirk said nothing about starfleet building a base on organia or in it's system. kirk intent seem to be to organize the organians to resist the klingons themselves.

If that was Kirk's plan, I don't think it was very ethical to try to get thousands or millions of Organians killed to hamper the Klingons. It makes it seem like the Federation, Starfleet, and Kirk were willing to "fight to the last Organian" and sacrifice the entire species to slow down the Klingon invasion of the Federation.

See post number 15311 at: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/last-star-trek-episode-you-watched.144775/page-766

 

[Tenacity]

I doubt if there was much time dilation during the five year mission since the Enterprise didn't travel at relativistic speeds

Could there have been time dialation while in warp, while in sub-space?

 

[STEPhon IT]

As regards the Okuda's books, Star Trek Chronology etc, they them selves said in a forward to the book that it isn't intended to be 'definitive' in terms of its timeline, and although certain things hypothesized in it did subsequently get confirmed on screen and became official, anything with the word 'Conjecture' beside it was simply them speculating. It should not escape our notice that in terms of TOS and pre-TOS, up to and including biographical details on the characters in some cases, a large amount of it bares this word, conjecture. It's become a kind of shared guideline for each of us to use as a common reference point, but large parts of it even today have never been confirmed on screen and remain speculation by the authors, while other parts have been debunked by series and movies made subsequently to it's publication. The authors themselves were very clear that what they wrote was, in part, largely for fun, and that much of it was still intended to be matters of debate and further speculation. Some writers on staff chose to follow it, others sometimes ignored it, others still (such as John Eaves when designing the Phoenix for the eighth movie) took vague inspiration from it, but developed further in a different direction. Nothing in those books that says 'conjecture' is immutable, anything not expressly confirmed on screen is still up for interpretation.

Enjoying reading your posts, @MAGolding. Keep 'em coming

Was it too hard for Okuda to embrace TOS was set in the 22nd Century than conjuring up these off setting timelines for the series? A logical compromise was to have TOS set in the latter end of the 22nd Century and TMP was in the beginning of the 23rd, than retconning timelines.

 

[Mytran]

Was it too hard for Okuda to embrace TOS was set in the 22nd Century than conjuring up these off setting timelines for the series? A logical compromise was to have TOS set in the latter end of the 22nd Century and TMP was in the beginning of the 23rd, than retconning timelines.

Everything was arranged around the explicit date of 2364 in The Neutral Zone and Admiral McCoy's age of 137 earlier that same season

 

[johnnybear]

Was it confirmed that Sarek was actually 202 years of age in the episode? Can't say I recall and that he died from his Bendii syndrome rather than actual age! Vulcans live around 250 years I've heard said on the show but what is the human comparable age in the future?
JB

 

[johnnybear]

Oh, and I can't really accept that Sarek or Unification is a century or more after Journey To Babel to be honest! Especially with the 78-80 years difference. But like you said is that after the last episode of TOS or TUC?
JB

 

[dupersuper]

Oh, and I can't really accept that Sarek or Unification is a century or more after Journey To Babel to be honest!

Why not?

 

[johnnybear]

Because it just doesn't feel that far advanced in time to be honest! We know that it's roughly eighty years which seems more consistent with what we do know!
JB

 

[Neopeius]

What to Make of TOS Season One Stardates.

So what would someone think about the stardates in Season One of TOS, if they recorded them all and figured out how much time passed between stardates in different episodes?

Good God. You deserve a PhD and a Hugo for this work.

 

[MAGolding]

In my post number 73 on page 4 of this thread:

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/tos-chronology.304218/page-4

I discuss the possibility that there might have been a time skip between the first part of season one of TOS and the second part of season one of TOS. If the Enterprise and its crew were sent forward in time by some science fictional event off screen between the two parts of season one, that could explain why the setting seems to have changed a lot between the two parts of the season. That way the changes to their society and in the organizations they worked for might not have been so abrupt. Those changes might have happened over a few years, years which the characters missed experiencing by being in a time warp or something.

I point out some apparent chronological limitations to how long the Enterprise and its crew could have been missing due to some sort of time warp or other science fictional event in my post number 73 on page 4 of this thread.

I also discuss those factors in my post number 401 at:

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/st-...nd-contradictory.304041/page-21#post-13503868

In post number 143 on page 8 of this thread I discussed various statements about the time that elapsed between various TOS episodes and movies and various episodes in the era of TNG, DS9, and VOY. Such statements of elapsed time also put limitations on how long a hypothetical time skip between the early part of TOS season one and the later part of of TOS season one could be.

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/tos-chronology.304218/page-8

See also post number 50 at:

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/each-season-feels-like-a-separate-show.305164/page-3

 

[MAGolding]

Perhaps I should put all the mentions of elapsed time from the three posts mentioned in post number 159 together in one post. And if anyone remembers other mentions of elapsed time they can feel free to add them.

in my post number 189 I mentioned that the second part of the first season of TOS does seem like it is farther in the future of space exploration than the first part of the first season of TOS. Mention of earth is more and more replaced by mention of the Federation or the United federation of Planets. Mention of UESPA or the United Earth Space Probe Agency is replaced by mention of Starfleet. And while other space travelling species seemed rare in the first part of the first season of TOS, in the second part of the first season of TOS, and in later seasons of TOS, they seem ore common.

So I wonder if there was some sort of time skip between the first part of the first season of TOS and the later TOS episodes.

All the episodes of TOS have the opening narration when Kirk talks about the "five year mission " of the Enterprise. But do all the episodes happen during the same five year mission? Possibly the TOS episodes happen during two or three successive five year missions, with several years elapsing between the episodes in the first part of the fist season and the episodes in the rest of TOS.

in the Voyager episode "Q2" Icheb is presenting his history of Starfleet.

ICHEB: Though it was a blatant violation of the Prime Directive, Kirk saved the Pelosians from extinction, just as he had the Baezians and the Chenari many years earlier. Finally, in the year 2270, Kirk completed his historic five year mission and one of the greatest chapters in Starfleet history came to a close. A new chapter began when Kirk regained command of the Enterprise.

It is usually supposed that Icheb is referring to the end of TOS and Kirk's regaining command of the Enterprise in Star Trek: The Motion Picture after at least 2.5 years. But it could be possible that Icheb is referring to Kirk completing his first five year mission and early TOS, and then regaining command of the Enterprise some time later for a second five year mission with most of the same senior staff during later TOS.

But in Star Trek: The Motion Picture When Kirk tells Decker he is taking command of the Enterprise mission to intercept V'ger:

DECKER: May I ask? Why?
KIRK: My experience, five years out there dealing with unknowns like this, my familiarity with the Enterprise, this crew.

So Kirk spent a total of about five years commanding the Enterprise in deep space. This makes it seem unlikely that Kirk commanded the Enterprise for several five year missions, unless Kirk spent only a fraction of each five year mission actually exploring on the frontier.

But possibly Kirk's five year mission on the Enterprise was spread out over more than five years in the outside universe.

Maybe the Enterprise was stuck travelling at high sublight speed with a strong time dilation for several years until it could slow down somehow. Maybe the Enterprise entered some type of time warp and traveled several years into the future and was not allowed to travel back into the past (even if a method was known) for fear of changing history. Maybe something else of a science fictional nature happened to the Enterprise and its crew, so that they skipped over several years between the first part of the first season and the rest of TOS.

If the Enterprise and its crew skipped several years of time between the first part of the first season, and the rest of TOS, there are a lot of factors which would tend to limit how long that time skip could have been. Though of course in a science fiction setting there are always several ways to interpret such factors.

In the first season episode "Shore Leave", which might have been either before or after the hypothetical time skip, Kirk meets two people from his past, a young woman named Ruth and a cadet named Finnegan from his time at Starfleet Academy.

KIRK: (into communicator) McCoy, do you read me? Ruth. Ruth, how can it be you? How could you possibly be here? You haven't aged. It's been fifteen years.

FINNEGAN: Get up. Get up. Get up. Always fight fair, don't you? True officer and gentleman, you. You stupid underclassman. I've got the edge. I'm still twenty years old. Look at you. You're an old man.

KIRK: A lot of things. What's been happening to my people?
FINNEGAN: I never answer questions from plebes, Jimmy boy.
KIRK: I'm not a plebe. This is today, fifteen years later. What are you doing here?

So about 15 years before "Shore Leave", Kirk was a plebe, a first year cadet, at Starfleet Academy.. In our era people usually enter US military service academies aged 18, although the legal limits are 17 to 22. If that is the case in Starfleet, Kirk would be about 32 to 37 in "Shore Leave".

In the second season episode "The Deadly Years", which is usually considered to be sometime after "Shore Leave", Kirk is rapidly aging, and at his competency hearing says:

KIRK: No, I'm thirty four. I'm thirty four years old.

So "The Deadly Years" could be between three years before "Shore Leave" to about two years after "Shore Leave. If the "Deadly Years" is after "Shore Leave" it would be between zero and about two years after "Shore Leave", which would allow only a very short time for a time skip if it happened after "Shore Leave", thus indicating a hypothetical time skip would probably be before "Shore leave".

Only a few intelligent alien species seem to be know during the first part of the first season of TOS. But later in TOS known intelligent species seem much more numerous.

In "The Empath":

KIRK: Without speech, how's she going to be able to understand us? Unless she's a telepath.
SPOCK: An unlikely possibility, Captain, since over ninety eight percent of the known telepathic species send thoughts as well as receive them. She's made no attempt to contact our minds.

How many telepathic species have to be known for Spock to be able to classify more than 98 percent of them as having a common characteristic?

If there were only 100 known telepathic species, 98 would be 98 percent and 99 would be 99 percent. If there were 200 telepathic species, 197 of them would be 98.5 percent. If there were 300 known telepathic species, 295 of them would be 98 and one third percent, and 296 of them would be 98 and two thirds percent. So possibly at least about 300 known telepathic species would be necessary for Spock to say over 98 percent of them. And what proportion of known species are counted as being telepathic?

So it is like there was an incredibly rapid explosion of Earth and Federation knowledge and expansion early during TOS, which might be partially explained by a time skip early in TOS.

If "Balance of Terror" was before a jump forward in time, the Romulans could have agreed to the establishment of Nimbus III some time after "Balance of Terror" and before the leap in time, and thus a comparatively long time before "Space Seed". That could help explain how Star Trek III: The Wrath of Khan was only fifteen years after "Space Seed" and Star trek V: The Final Frontier, which should be only a few months later, was 20 years after the establishment of Nimbus III.

Appareently this post got toolong to save, so it will be continued.