Thems fightin' words!
She was a breath of fresh air.
Season 3 Finally Lands October 15
- Thread starter Khan 2.0
- Start date
She was a breath of fresh air.
Ah, this old chestnut again. You've never complained about any of the other Trek shows disproportionately having a larger percentage of males in their main casts than females, or the fact they are 100% heterosexual. But suddenly, having more than two women in the main and supporting cast combined, and having gay people present is "unrealistically disproportionate and it would be better to have a 50/50 blend."
Were I a producer, I would intentionally create a show in which the main cast consisted entirely of women, minorities and LGBTQ+ people (some even being a combination of all three criteria) with only a single token straight white male who serves no useful purpose at all just because I know it would piss people like you off.
No that's how you do representation. They have a gay couple and they're never treated as anything other than ordinary because at that point it is ordinary, it practically is now. They're just one of the couples on the ship, we get to know and care for them. They have black characters and they're just doing their job like everyone else. We get to know and care for them. Representation isn't about pointing out differences, it's about showing how people who are different are just like everyone else when it comes to certain things, like traveling through space. It's not even for the white male majority fanbase, it's for the LGBTQ and black fans so they can see someone like them being just like everyone else on Star Trek and they don't want to hear how they're different every single day, believe me it gets pointed out enough in real life.
Other than her rank, I really hope the confirmed continuation of her Command Training Program is also a dead end... I mean, what are her chances of actually getting to command a Starfleet vessel, anyway? If this were like Voyager, at least they could use the prospect of getting home as an explanation, but they're stuck in the future and it looks like they're staying for the rest of the show. She'd basically have to outlive every other officer and then she could have an empty ship all for herself with maybe a dozen enlisted senior citizens and possibly a bunch of kids. It's not like any future military would want her with her a-millennium-out-of-date training. It would be like putting a medieval Hanseatic sailor on the bridge of the USS Nimitz and asking them to sail to Norfolk.
"Where No Man Has Gone Before" is very much a character story. So is "The Cage," for that matter, and by extension "The Menagerie."
In WNMHGB, you have Kirk struggling with the transformation of Mitchell into a danger to the ship and crew and struggling with the advice that Spock has given him. Kirk seeks to compromise and maroon Gary instead of killing him, though in the end he has to do what Spock proposed to begin with. That defines Kirk as both a compassionate and conscientious man, who tries not only to safeguard the ship, but also to protect Gary as well, who as Kirk points out didn't ask for what happened to him. We also see the prototypical dynamic of human feelings vs impersonal logic played out between Kirk and Spock.
As for "The Cage," it's pretty much all about Pike's character as a weary captain, considering what he might do instead of carrying the burden of command.
I agree that "The Conscience of the King" and "The Naked Time" are character stories as well. "Journey to Babel" is also a character study, this time focusing on Spock and his parents.
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As for the question of "message" episodes in TOS, there were many with a sharply defined moral to the story. "The Corbomite Maneuver" is an obvious example: what you see as monsters may well just be potential friends hiding behind masks. It's also a study of first contact protocols designed to glean true intentions. "Arena" is also a message story about resolving conflicts peacefully through compassion and viewing the situation through your enemy's eyes. "A Private Little War" is a message story bordering on pro-police action Cold War propaganda (agree or disagree, it is what it is). "The Cloud Minders" is a parable about human rights and sharing the privileges and burdens equitably in a society. No doubt there are other examples.
Of course, there were many episodes that were basically just action/adventure. "Balance of Terror" and "The Doomsday Machine" which is pretty much my favorite top my list of that type.
Hadn't thought of that until now, but you are right, with Tilly's overarching story they've practically reached a dead end with the new setting. Will be interesting to see if they address that point and whether her arc somehow still lands her in any command position at some point.
I'm really curious if season three will be more like Discovery as the Flying Dutchman or if they'll align themselves with some new group or faction. If it's the latter, there might still be some reasonable hope left for Tilly as a captain down the line.
ETA: This reminds me that I'm almost over the fact that they all unanimously decided to follow Burnham to the future. At the time this was pretty hard to swallow for me.
The writers seemed to have built an exit - ramp from their untenable notion of a vessel moving hundreds of years into the future, and yet being able to survive in a galaxy that has advanced far beyond them by making the future an apparently desolate post-apocalyptic environment.
That would potentially allow for Tilly to advance as the leader of another vessel or faction, although I figure that they will continue to use her as the plucky comic relief.
I'm definitely hoping Tilly is a Nog instead of a Kim.
Just for the fun of it, Kim vs. Nog:
2371 --> Ensign Kim, Civilian Nog
2372 --> Ensign Kim, Cadet Nog
2374 --> Ensign Kim, Ensign Nog
2375 --> Ensign Kim, Lieutenant Nog
.
.
.
2399 --> Ensign Kim, Captain Nog
Okay, I'm making that last one up. But I'm probably not wrong.
If they're rebuilding the Federation, there should be a need for command officers in a new Starfleet.
I'm not sure I agree because the character's decisions serve the needs of the plot, instead of the plot's decisions serving the needs of the character. Yes, the episode says a number of good things about Kirk as a person - and the decision to have Gary Mitchell be a friend of Kirk's added a nice personal touch to the story, but we see Kirk react the way he does because it makes for a good story and a admirable protagonist. Though again, he was being made up whole cloth in the episode, so he could have literally been anything the writers wanted at that point.
Similarly, I don't really think The City on the Edge of Forever is a character story, because anyone could have fallen for Edith Keeler. It plays to human universals rather than the particularities of Kirk's character.
In this case I think I actually agree with you. Pike's weariness is not something which we would expect from a stereotypical heroic leader, and it gave him a definable character arc over the course of the pilot. You cannot imagine The Cage with Kirk instead of Pike, as it would have resulted in an entirely different story.
That means it's Tilly's time to shine!
While it's a cool idea to think every Discovery main cast member gets to captain their own ship going into Seasons 4/5, I don't see how they'd work that out in terms of a budget.
Be an interesting inversion of the usual story structure in serialized drama though. Instead of starting with characters with different POVs far apart who eventually cross paths, you'd have the main cast explode outward and all have their own independent adventures.
Be an interesting inversion of the usual story structure in serialized drama though. Instead of starting with characters with different POVs far apart who eventually cross paths, you'd have the main cast explode outward and all have their own independent adventures.
And you know this how? I've already said MULTIPLE times, that that was wrong too, and that two wrongs don't make a right. But why listen to reason and debate properly when you can accuse a poster of something they're not or put words in their mouth time and time again.
So basically, Discovery? With Lorca as the only straight white male in season 1 and Pike and Leland as the only straight white men in season 2? Think about it.
You can carry on deluding yourself into thinking I'm some bigot that doesn't like women or gay people. Feel free, I couldn't care less. I'll just laugh knowing how utterly wrong you are. It's very easy to paint people who don't subscribe to this "representation" check-boxing of casting as bigots, as you've done.
Treat casting naturally, don't swing the pendulum so far the other way it's in the next sector. That's all.
Fact Check:
He thinks having it be predominately male is "wrong" too, and yet it doesn't look like he had a problem with ENT. In fact, he was quite upset when it was cancelled in 2005.
"Disproportionate Representation" wasn't a deal-breaker back then, when it swung the other way. How much times change.
He thinks having it be predominately male is "wrong" too, and yet it doesn't look like he had a problem with ENT. In fact, he was quite upset when it was cancelled in 2005.
Although it does cheer me up that UPN will die shortly behind Enterprise. Well done UPN
"Disproportionate Representation" wasn't a deal-breaker back then, when it swung the other way. How much times change.
Spock is straight and white, so is Sarek. Having pointy ears doesn't mean they don't count. And there is no pendulum, this is a forward going process and has been so for the entire history of television and media. It will only increase in the future so get used to it.
I do wonder how you would count characters like Odo, Quark, and Neelix though, who were played by white men, but were so heavily made up race wasn't really all that clear.
They count, just like a gay actor playing a gay Klingon would count as gay representation. The closest we got to that before was Garak, who was clearly into Bashir in early seasons.
Is it really as disproportionate as you claim? Let's see. Wikipedia claims there are about 770 million people living in Europe and the Asian part of Russia, an indeterminate supermajority of whom are white. I don't really have the time to collect census data on all European countries, but let's be generous and say 700 million people. The European global diaspora is a bit better defined, with 510 million people if we discount Latin Americans of partial European ancestry. That gives us a rough estimate of about 1.2 billion white people out of a global population of 7.8 billion. If roughly half of them are male, you get about 600 million white males. Total. Which amounts to a whopping ~8%* of the global population. That means two white men out of every 25 characters.
*7,69%, to be exact, but as we've already used rounded estimates to begin with, we can't afford the luxury of precision. And I'm rounding up to the closest integer just to be generous.
Nice. Alot of people seem to incorrectly of US and not Earth demographics when moaning about Star Trek.
Also what doesnt get pointed out enough is fair play to DIS for diversifying the ship names too
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