Why no women captains?

[Guy Gardener]

No money.

You'd have to find persons who find joy from hauling garbage. I suppose if you do a few dozen pickups and dropoffs every week, you have a ship to play with in your off time.

Cue Dukes of Hazzard sound track.

Would Starfleet let a bumble fuck with dodgy clearance, pull a ship up to the side of every starbase in the federation?

They'd only hire ex-starfleet, and you've already quit Starfleet once, it's a bit of a step down when you're supposed to be enjoying your twilight years.

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In TNG ensigns of command, Picard requested a colony ship that could haul 20,000 people.

That's a big ship.

Maybe Starfleet doesn't handle colonisation, but it's a Concerted effort to staff and feul such a massive vehicle that it would require a member world, or the Federation as a whole to be behind it.

 

[C57D]

Look at the relevant lines from the episode:-

JANICE: I hoped I wouldn't see you again.
KIRK: I don't blame you.
JANICE: The year we were together at Starfleet is the only time in my life I was alive.
KIRK: I never stopped you from going on with your space work.
JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.
KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.
JANICE: I loved you. We could've roamed among the stars.
KIRK: We'd have killed each other.
JANICE: It might have been better.

Janice doesn't say that she was held back from starship command. She says that Kirk put his career ahead of his relationship with her. She was obviously obsessively in love with him, but even she admits the relationship was quite toxic. He never stopped her career, but wasn't going to give up his career to stay with her.
She was scorned by Kirk's commitment to his career (how many times in TOS does he say that the Enterprise is his only lover?), and that is why she takes it over from him in the episode.

Given all that, there is nothing here that indicates that Starfleet prohibits female captains. QED.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Look at the relevant lines from the episode:-

JANICE: I hoped I wouldn't see you again.
KIRK: I don't blame you.
JANICE: The year we were together at Starfleet is the only time in my life I was alive.
KIRK: I never stopped you from going on with your space work.
JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.
KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.
JANICE: I loved you. We could've roamed among the stars.
KIRK: We'd have killed each other.
JANICE: It might have been better.

Janice doesn't say that she was held back from starship command. She says that Kirk put his career ahead of his relationship with her. She was obviously obsessively in love with him, but even she admits the relationship was quite toxic. He never stopped her career, but wasn't going to give up his career to stay with her.
She was scorned by Kirk's commitment to his career (how many times in TOS does he say that the Enterprise is his only lover?), and that is why she takes it over from him in the episode.

Given all that, there is nothing here that indicates that Starfleet prohibits female captains. QED.

You're reading it wrong.

When she says "It isn't fair." And he replies "No, it isn't." Kirk isn't agreeing that it's unfair, he's disagreeing that it isn't fair. She's wrong, and that there is an excellent reason why her gender is barred, and completely fair that they are all barred forever.

 

[Tenacity]

Because the line was written in 1966.

Some of the dialog and situations in TNG heavily mark it as being a product of the 1980's, but this is the universe of the 24th century that the producers and writers created. You don't just go in and creatively remove aspects of the universe of TNG because that not how things are done in the year 2020.

Any more than you would with the 23rd century Trek universe created in the late 1960's.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Some of the dialog and situations in TNG heavily mark it as being a product of the 1980's, but this is the universe of the 24th century that the producers and writers created. You don't just go in and creatively remove aspects of the universe of TNG because that not how things are done in the year 2020.

Any more than you would with the 23rd century Trek universe created in the late 1960's.

Sure you do. Because as fiction it's mutable.

 

[Guy Gardener]

In one of the high end fanfilms, recently, Uhura took command after some shit went down.

It was nice, because that would never happen on TV,

Voyager Futures End S03e08

KIM: Break the link.
TORRES: Done.
KIM: What's our transporter status?
TORRES: The main pattern buffers are still offline. We can try an emergency transport from a lower orbit.
KIM: That's exactly what the Captain ordered us not to do. We'd be risking detection.
TORRES: Harry, we can't worry about that now. Their lives are in danger.
KIM: And if somebody sees a starship flying through the clouds?
TORRES: The Captain put you in charge. It is your decision.
KIM: Helm, get a fix on Chakotay and the Captain.
CREWMAN: Aye, sir.

Torress was a Lieutenant Junior grade, and her boss was a mere Ensign.

 

[Tenacity]

Torress was a Lieutenant Junior grade, and her boss was a mere Ensign.

I'm trying to recall a time where Bee'Lanna was in command of the ship. It might be a simply matter that she wasn't a qualified bridge watch officer, while Harry obviously was (we see him in command of third watch).

Like Beverly Crusher was.

If Ensign Chekov was the one "at the con" he could issue a legal order to Lt. Commander McCoy.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The CMO can send anyone to their room for a time out.

There is no way that B'Elanna would be given Engineering, which is conservatively where a third of the crew works, and a secondary bridge if some one spaces Kathy, if she didn't have command privileges.

I've always believed that Joe Carey still did her paperwork, which is 90 percent of the job, HR and Admin, and that was before she was married with children. Just becuase she is an inventive and talented engineer, does not mean that she has any patience for endless Kafkaesque clerical bullshit.

So if command fell to the Chief Engineer, because Janeway and bridge crew got spaghettified, Joe is probably going to have to explain that she is the Chief in name only, so she had better gracefully bow out.

Never going to happen?

Joe's nose is going to get broken again?

Thought as much.

 

[Warped9]

Since the very first time I saw “Turnabout Intruder” I took Lester as nuts and bitter and jealous over Kirk’s choice of career over her. It consumed her. Following the story I never took it to mean command was closed to women, but only as command was closed to her because Starfleet clearly saw she didn’t have what it takes. Her instability was apparent enough to them to bar her from command.

Furthermore TOS had already established the possibility of command with Number One. She was in command in Pike’s absence. It only follows she could advance to a command of her own.

Finally there is the Romulan Commander of “The Enterprise Incident.” Yeah, I know she is an alien, but nonetheless the writers had no issue with a woman commanding not just a starship, but an entire squadron.

I think something else was at play here. Way back in 1965 NBC didn’t reject Number One—they rejected Majel Barrett playing Number One. They wanted her recast. GR was in a pickle with his extramarital girlfriend. So instead of being a genuine professional he ducked and simply eliminated Number One with the explanation of making NBC the heavies claiming they didn’t want a female as second-in-command. And as a consolation prize he casts Majel as Nurse Christine Chapel.

Now going forward does GR scotch any further suggestions of depicting a female starship Captain if they arise (to maintain the fiction he told Majel) or is it just no one even thinks of it later on until “The Enterprise Incident”? And more specifically does no ever even suggest casting a woman as a Starfleet starship Captain?

Any of the other starship commanders, starbase commanders or Admirals depicted could have been played by a woman with some exceptions, notably Matt Decker, Ron Tracey, Ron Merrick, Commodore Stocker or Garth. Each of those characters had lapses in judgement and could have fuelled the argument of a woman’s unsuitability to command.

But any of the others—Stone, Mendez, Wesley, Komack or any of the rest could easily have been played by a woman. It would be interesting to know if it had even been suggested. For that matter, though, note how after season one we don’t see anyone other than white American in command either. In season one we had Stone, Mendez, Kraznowski and the fourth fellow whose name escapes me at the moment. But after that they’re all very white American. We never get even a Brit.

 

[Guy Gardener]

There's a problem with Number One being our poster child.

COLT: But you wanted the reports by oh five hundred. It's oh five hundred now, sir.
PIKE: Oh, I see. Thank you.
ONE: She's replacing your former yeoman, sir.
PIKE: She does a good job, all right. It's just that I can't get used to having a woman on the bridge. No offence, Lieutenant. You're different, of course.

Number one was only a Lieutenant?

But my point was that in recent history, which was the same time that Janice and Kirk were at the academy maybe, women were not allowed on the bridge.

How the ###k is a woman supposed to command a star ship, if she is not allowed on the bridge of that same Starship?

So it's possible that women were allowed command AFTER Janice graduated, but she could not be assed to go back to school for another 4 years, to get her Captain's License once she was finally out in the real world with enough qualifications to do "some" jobs.

Furthermore about Number One...

Affirmative Action.

Some forward thinking politician decided that it was finally time to let women on the bridge and assume command positions (again) in the mid 2250s.

So?

Did Starfleet immediately take the best women in the fleet, and shoe horn them into command positions that they were not adequately trained for, or did Starfleet wait 4 years till all the new cadets had matriculated through Starfleet ACADEMY, and then another 6 to 10 years for the women from that class, who had the right stuff, to receive a natural series a deserved promotions until at least one of them made it to Captain?

A few years ago, a poster way more sexist than I am was obsessed with how women can't be Army Rangers, becuase even though they were finally legally allowed to do Ranger Training, women are weak (this is what he said, not me). For perspective Ranger training, the final exam lasts 2 months, in the wilderness, HIDING from everyone, while completing hundreds of preassigned tasks, while living off the land. People die. Soldiers spend years defining themselves before they commit to Ranger Training. The first women to do ranger training, hadn't spent 5 years getting ready for something that they were legally barred from, so they failed.

2 years later, Google says that there are currently 12 female Army Rangers.

 

[Khan Jr]

There's nothing in the dialogue you quoted that says women weren't allowed on starship bridges. A personal hang-up of Pike's is being highlighted that Number One reacts to accordingly.

Executive officers throughout naval history have held a variety of ranks depending on the number of people they have authority over. Star Trek hadn't yet settled into the habit of making them always be commanders regardless of the ship's complement. In the context of "The Cage," the rank of lieutenant is appropriate to the position, and with the sole exception of Pike himself, Number One's place in the chain of command is above every male on the Enterprise.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The word is "unused".

I am unused to spiders in my apples.

I am used to spiders in my apples.

 

[alchemist]

Look at the relevant lines from the episode:-

JANICE: I hoped I wouldn't see you again.
KIRK: I don't blame you.
JANICE: The year we were together at Starfleet is the only time in my life I was alive.
KIRK: I never stopped you from going on with your space work.
JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.
KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.
JANICE: I loved you. We could've roamed among the stars.
KIRK: We'd have killed each other.
JANICE: It might have been better.

Janice doesn't say that she was held back from starship command. She says that Kirk put his career ahead of his relationship with her. She was obviously obsessively in love with him, but even she admits the relationship was quite toxic. He never stopped her career, but wasn't going to give up his career to stay with her.
She was scorned by Kirk's commitment to his career (how many times in TOS does he say that the Enterprise is his only lover?), and that is why she takes it over from him in the episode.

Given all that, there is nothing here that indicates that Starfleet prohibits female captains. QED.

This scene was significantly shortened in editing. Here’s an excerpt from the Dec. 20, 1968 final draft script showing some of what was cut:

JANICE
I hoped I would never see you
again.

KIRK
I don’t blame you.

JANICE
(her eyes closing
- her hand going
limp)
Why don’t you kill me? It would
be easy for you now. No one would know.

KIRK
(a startled look)
I never wanted to hurt you

JANICE
You did.

KIRK
Only so I could survive as myself.

JANICE
I died. When you left me, I died!

KIRK
(trying for the
light touch)
You still exaggerate. I have heard
reports of your work.

JANICE
Digging in the ruins of dead
civilizations.

KIRK
You lead in your field.

Janice opens her eyes – to look long at Kirk.

JANICE
The year we were together at
Starfleet is the only time in my life I was alive.

KIRK
I didn’t stop you from going
on with space work.

JANICE
I had to! Where would it lead?
Your world of Star Ship Captains
doesn’t admit women.

KIRK
You’ve always blamed me for that.

JANICE
You accepted it.

KIRK
I couldn’t have changed it.

JANICE
You believed they were right.
I know you did.

KIRK
And you hated me for it. How
you hated. Every minute we
were together became an agony.

JANICE
It isn’t fair –

KIRK
No, it isn’t. And I was the
one you punished and tortured
because of it.

 

[Warped9]

^^ That seems pretty clear Lester is bitter that Kirk’s career left little to no room for her in terms of a committed relationship. It doesn’t say she was excluded from being a ship commander herself.

And think it through: If she herself ever became a starship commander and Kirk was one then they couldn’t serve together—they’d be assigned separately.

 

[Tenacity]

Number one was only a Lieutenant?

The ship only had a crew of slightly above two hundred, how high of rank would the first officer (who oversees the operation of the ship and crew) need to be for a ship with a crew of that size?

I've considered that Captain Pike (again considering the size of the crew) might hold the rank (not the position) of a commander.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It's possible to take Pike's remark about not being used to having a woman on the bridge as saying simply that he's not used to having a new yeoman since his old one was killed on RIgel VII. I know others have proposed that interpretation. To say that something got lost in translation would be an understatement, though.

 

[Tenacity]

there are currently 12 female Army Rangers

Twelve out of over thirty-six hundred Rangers? Wow.

There is no way that B'Elanna would be given Engineering, which is conservatively where a third of the crew works, and a secondary bridge if some one spaces Kathy, if she didn't have command privileges.

If she wasn't qualified to be a bridge officer, yes way.

Beverly had to study on her off time, take tests, do simulations, to qualify as a bridge officer. Would YOU want to be the one to inform Bee'Lanna that she has to do all that, while holding down her duties as chief engineer?

It would seriously cut into her personnal masochist holodeck fantasies.

It's possible to take Pike's remark about not being used to having a woman on the bridge as saying simply that he's not used to having a new yeoman since his old one was killed on RIgel VII.

So if the replacement yeoman were male, Pike would have remarked that he wasn't used to to having a man on the bridge?

That would have been a interesting statement.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So if the replacement yeoman were male, Pike would have remarked that he wasn't used to to having a man on the bridge?

Likely and obviously, he wouldn't have made a sex-related comment at all.

One of the themes of the episode was sexual seduction. So, the yeoman remark seems to have been a ham-fisted effort at exploring that theme, foreshadowing the possible involvement of himself with female officers under his command in terms of who "Eve" will turn out to be. I believe also that the yeoman remark was meant to indicate, frankly, that Pike is feeling like he needs some romantic involvement/sex, again in a ham-fisted way.

 

[BK613]

The ship only had a crew of slightly above two hundred, how high of rank would the first officer (who oversees the operation of the ship and crew) need to be for a ship with a crew of that size?

I've considered that Captain Pike (again considering the size of the crew) might hold the rank (not the position) of a commander.

Depends a great deal on the organizational needs of the ship in question (i.e, how many levels in the chain of command hierarchy.) There is no set formula that says anything like, <100 LT, <200 LtCdr, etc.
To illustrate, a logistics ship I served on had about one third of the 470 crew belong to the Supply Dept. With the department divided into seven divisions, the Supply Officer was always a full Commander with the level on seniority that it was common for the Supply Officer to make the rank of Captain while serving on board.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If Cis Women are barred, are Transmen barred?