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Why no women captains?

They might look old on the outside but have younger bodies on the inside. You think a present day 134 year old would walk as upright as McCoy in TNG?

Oh that's what I meant. They might be getting more wrinkles and grey, but the vitality we are looking at means that they can keep getting older with out becoming frail and brittle enough to be afraid of a stiff wind.

They can survive as an old looking person for decades longer than the old people we have now can.

Mark Jameson.

During the course of the episode Too Short a Season, Mark only got 45 years younger, where from turning from a hoverchair bound Crypt Keeper to a hottie stud in his mid 20s.
 
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The few colonies shown in TOS only had a handful of people, assuming most humans who joined Starfleet are from the Sol system, there is no shortage of people living on Earth to keep the population growing.

Yes, I have already pointed out in my earlier posts that the hypothesis falls apart because most Trek characters are from Earth and thus colonial values would not explain it. My point all along has been that even the best hypothesis I can think of for what might cause 1960s-style gender values to arise again in some future starfaring society still doesn't work for the actual Trek universe and thus completely fails to justify the idiocy of "Turnabout Intruder."
 
...The script (thanks to Roddenberry's burnout with arguing against TPTB at the time)...
That's not even plausible, and it's certainly not a good excuse. But... I'll bite. Got a link for that?
Roddenberry was off at National General writing his awful Tarzan movie script during a chunk of the 3rd season, so it seems likely he wasn't feuding with NBC on a regular basis during that period.
 
Ent is in an altered timeline.

The Suliban rescued Archer's crew from an historically predetermined death sentence in episode 10.

Although since the Defiant had historical records of post Enterprise Archer and Riker's therapy game that killed Trip, it seems that the Suliban created the timeline that we saw in the 1960s.
 
It was a single bad episode of a television show produced in the 60s. I don't think we need to bend over backwards to justify it.

While that's certainly true, it's kind of an odd thing to say in a fandom known for taking trivial pieces of minutia and analyzing them to death.

Plus if there is an option to make it fit, then I prefer that.

The real basis is her failure to make it as a captain. That doesn't require her to be right about the reason for her failure. There are countless people who can't accept failure and blame it on outside factors, evil conspiracies, etc. I've seen wannabe writers who had no talent but who blamed their failure on the industry being an elitist clique that wouldn't give them a fair chance. Lots of people fail at sports but blame their equipment or the weather or whatever. Certain narcissistic politicians blame the media or the "Deep State" for their own incompetence.

Which is what I think was happening. She had observed a real phenomenon, there being no female captains of Starship class vessels in the era when she was trying to become one, plus the stringent entrance standards, maybe some cultural bias, and of course probably not being able to gain the acceptance of her peers; and said, "Aha! See! You don't allow women to be Starship captains." When in reality there is no rule that says women can't become Starship captains.


Metatextually, we don't have to treat every single spoken line of dialogue as absolute gospel. We don't have to assume the impulse engines are fission-based just because Kelso mentioned the points decaying to lead. We don't have to assume Deanna Troi suffered a memory wipe of all the times she kissed Riker with a beard before Insurrection. Sometimes fiction contains errors, like any human construct. Sometimes it's better just to overlook an error than call attention to it.

Certainly, but this line is at the very heart of Janice Lester's motivations. She wants to be the captain of a starship and she can't. So she decides to swap bodies with Kirk and become the Captain she always wanted to be.

Just as we're allowed to take all the early first-season TOS episodes that talked about the Enterprise as an Earth or UESPA ship and pretend it was the Federation and Starfleet all along.

You're certainly free to do that. For me I interpret it as a part of a transition when Starfleet was taking over duties of UESPA.

We don't have any real reason to assume they are all-male. For that matter, since two of those commanding officers were commodores, we can't even be sure they were the regular captains of those ships. Wesley might've been assigned to the Lexington strictly for the war games, for all we know.

Which is why I said it's an assumption. There not anything contradicting that.

Kirk's (personal) world of starship captains does not admit sons or women.

When put that way it emphasizes even more how odd of a word choice it is to use "admit" if your just talking about there not being a place for women in a captain's life.

Additionally, saying, "There's no room for me in your life." makes no sense in the context of Janice Lester's character. Because her motivation isn't to be Kirk's girlfriend, it's to be the captain of a Starship.

If we take The Cage and Turnabout Intruder as the same universe then something took place between the two periods if women were no longer alllowed to be starship captains.

Not necessarily, I don't think there was ever a rule that said, "women cannot be captains of Starships." So there's nothing inconsistent about Number One temporarily assuming command. But it just so happens that none of the permanently assigned captains of Starships are women nor would there be until the maybe 2280s. Not that there was a rule preventing them, it was just more difficult for people outside the knowledge base of the current cadre of captains to be admitted.

1. The women having babies theory falls down - its the 23rd century any human female who wants to have children later in life, all they need to do is freeze their eggs, 200 years from now a woman having a baby at age 50, 60 or 70 should not raise any eye brows, human life span is twice as long as the 21st century version. A 50 year old fertile female should be the same as a present day mid30's year old fertile female.

Agreed, which is why this can be the sole reason there are no women Starship captains.

2. Unless we want to go down the Starfleet is just for humans road, then what about long lived species like the Vulcans who can serve in Starfleet way past the age of 100, and probably have children at that age as well. Does this stupid rule of no female captains apply to them?

I don't think Starfleet is only for humans, but I do think that it is majority humans, like at least 80% human. That's what discovering warp drive first will do for you.

But as I said, I don't think there is a "no female Starship captains rule." I think that's how Janice Lester obsessively interpreted the circumstances around the then-serving captains and the admittance procedure.

[T]here is a female captain in The Voyage home, when did she get her promotion?

Probably sometime in the late 2270s or early 2280s.
 
Roddenberry was off at National General writing his awful Tarzan movie script during a chunk of the 3rd season, so it seems likely he wasn't feuding with NBC on a regular basis during that period.
Didn't someone say GR admitted that he actually meant the line as it was written. That women should accept their limitations. That it wasn't NBC he was fighting but his wife. Take that soon-to-be ex Mrs Roddenberry.

Remember the Romulan Captain from the Enterprise Incident tugging at her own dress every 40 seconds because it wouldn't stop riding up?

Sitting in the Captains chair, on another ships view screen, twice actual size, we're talking about Basic Instinct.

I'm sure all the women had the option to wear trousers, although if it really was like Madmen on the Enterprise, then only the gals in the tiny little skirts got away missions and promotions.
According to my late mother-in-law who worked in the 60s it was the women who slept with the bosses who got the promotions - everyone in the office wore mini-skirts.
 
While that's certainly true, it's kind of an odd thing to say in a fandom known for taking trivial pieces of minutia and analyzing them to death.

Plus if there is an option to make it fit, then I prefer that.

Anyone familiar with my Star Trek novels knows that I love explaining continuity minutiae. But not every inconsistency is worth the effort. Nobody actually wants there to be a ban on women in Starfleet. It's a stupid, ugly idea and it's a blemish on the series that it was ever posited at all. So the only thing we should do with it is gloss it over and move on. Just tiptoe around it and hurry away, like a dead bird lying in the sidewalk. It doesn't deserve anything more.


Which is what I think was happening. She had observed a real phenomenon, there being no female captains of Starship class vessels in the era when she was trying to become one, plus the stringent entrance standards, maybe some cultural bias, and of course probably not being able to gain the acceptance of her peers; and said, "Aha! See! You don't allow women to be Starship captains." When in reality there is no rule that says women can't become Starship captains.

And that's not a place I want to go. There's no evidentiary basis for assuming there weren't female captains, since we can only confirm at most 5 contemporaneous male Constitution captains out of 12, which is no more than you'd statistically expect with gender equality. It's an ad hoc assumption that there's no reason to make, except to justify a premise that's undesirable to begin with.


Certainly, but this line is at the very heart of Janice Lester's motivations. She wants to be the captain of a starship and she can't. So she decides to swap bodies with Kirk and become the Captain she always wanted to be.

Certainly there's plenty of evidence for some degree of sexism in the TOS era. That's where my colonial-attitudes theory comes in. But that doesn't require an actual lack of female captains. Lester could've experienced some regressive gender attitudes in other respects, and blamed them when she was washed out due to psychological instability. A narcissistic delusion doesn't have to fit the facts, since its holder will cherrypick the facts to fit it.


Additionally, saying, "There's no room for me in your life." makes no sense in the context of Janice Lester's character. Because her motivation isn't to be Kirk's girlfriend, it's to be the captain of a Starship.

Of course it doesn't make perfect sense, but it's preferable to the original idea that makes even less sense. Nobody ever said that rationalizing mistakes and bad ideas in a work of fiction was a flawless undertaking. Sometimes the continuity errors and plot holes are impossible to mend perfectly, so you just have to settle for whatever leaky, makeshift patch you can manage to slap on.


I don't think Starfleet is only for humans, but I do think that it is majority humans, like at least 80% human. That's what discovering warp drive first will do for you.

Huh? Of the four founding species, humans discovered warp drive last. First Contact had Vulcans showing up to greet us literally hours after the first warp flight, and Enterprise confirmed that the Andorians and Tellarites both had well-established presences in space for generations before humans did.

I quite liked the way Enterprise deconstructed the Campbellian assumption of human superiority over aliens by establishing that the reason humans became the keystone of the future Federation was because we were the youngest, least experienced spacefaring civilization. We were the newcomers that nobody had any longstanding grudges against, so we were the only ones all the other species trusted as neutral mediators, and thus we ended up in the anchor position, the buffer between all the others.
 
That makes it a level playing field.

How did Jayne Hathaway get to the top, directly under Mr. Drysdale, when she's both a lesbian and barely showing her ankles?

Lily Tomlin?

Was she out of the closet yet?
 
You're certainly free to do that. For me I interpret it as a part of a transition when Starfleet was taking over duties of UESPA.
Good explanation, but I prefer it adjusted slightly, "... a transition when UESPA Starfleet was taking over duties of the Federation." :)

They transition United Earth's Starfleet to be under the Federation creating the first joint space command for the Federation. The transition is underway during Season 1, and the transition is officially completed by mid-Season 1.
 
That makes it a level playing field.

How did Jayne Hathaway get to the top, directly under Mr. Drysdale, when she's both a lesbian and barely showing her ankles?

Lily Tomlin?

Was she out of the closet yet?
Don’t conflate actor with character.
 
While that's certainly true, it's kind of an odd thing to say in a fandom known for taking trivial pieces of minutia and analyzing them to death.
I'm certainly guilty of that. But I'm saying there are limits. If "Turnabout Intruder" was a good episode, I'd think it was worth the effort. But it wasn't, so it's not.

I mean, there's a reason you don't see many follow ups or references to "The Alternative Factor" in other live action Trek or in the tie-in fiction. It's because the episode was crap.
Anyone familiar with my Star Trek novels knows that I love explaining continuity minutiae. But not every inconsistency is worth the effort.
Exactly. Anything you could do to "explain" why women couldn't be Captains in the 2260s just pulls the Star Trek Universe too far out of shape to make the effort worth it.
 
Agreed, which is why this can be the sole reason there are no women Starship captains.
How? If a human woman joins the SFA at 18, graduates and becomes an ensign at say 21 or 22 and makes the rank of captain by mid 30's or early 40's, she can delay motherhood until her 50's or 60's. Or have kids at 30 and by 50 join Starfleet and make the rank of captain at 65? Her life partner or family members can raise the child(ren). The influence of alien cultural on human culture might even include the death or small influence of the nuclear family set up.
Or horror of horrors, some human women might not even want to give birth!!!!!

I don't think Starfleet is only for humans, but I do think that it is majority humans, like at least 80% human. That's what discovering warp drive first will do for you.
I think that was retconned
 
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I think that was retconned

Rather, it was never established in the first place. Indeed, the fact that the Romulans existed made it obvious that Vulcans had starflight long, long before Earth did. True, Kirk did call Cochrane "the discoverer of the space warp," but if you're gonna argue for the existence of institutionalized misogyny, you have to concede the possibility of ethnocentrism as well.
 
Rather, it was never established in the first place. Indeed, the fact that the Romulans existed made it obvious that Vulcans had starflight long, long before Earth did. True, Kirk did call Cochrane "the discoverer of the space warp," but if you're gonna argue for the existence of institutionalized misogyny, you have to concede the possibility of ethnocentrism as well.
"the discoverer of the space warp," well its the 23rd century version of the "Christopher Columbus 'discovered' America"...
 
How? If a human woman joins the SFA at 18, graduates and becomes an ensign at say 21 or 22 and makes the rank of captain by mid 30's or early 40's, she can delay motherhood until her 50's or 60's. Or have kids at 30 and by 50 join Starfleet and make the rank of captain at 65? Her life partner or family members can raise the child(ren). The influence of alien cultural on human culture might even include the death or small influence of the nuclear family set up.
Or horror of horrors, some human women might not even want to give birth!!!!!
I wonder how a 50-60 year old female captain will out wrestle a Gorn, three-on-one fight on Triskelion, battling a mad-superhuman in engineering, etc, etc... Maybe there were physical requirements that a captain needed to attain, especially in the fighting skills (i.e. Kirk-Fu). Both Matt Decker and Ron Tracey showed their fighting expertise. We see over and over where the captain, as leader, must fight as the Federation's champion. (The reason Chekov will never be a captain based on his fight against Kloog. :lol: )
 
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