Why no women captains?

[Guy Gardener]

So after Starfleet figured out that only women, even the lesbians, can ignore Orion Slave Girl hormones, men stopped getting the top spots, until the mens rights lot pushed back and got all women kicked out of the highest positions in the fleet, because MEN RULE!!!

 

[Nyotarules]

But let's just indulge in this fantasy what if.

What you call a fantasy I call the nightmare version of Star Trek. Any novelverse or fan production to try explain the unexplainable deserves derision. There is no logical explainaton for Turnabout Intruder if one insists on ignoring the 'Lester had a mental breakdown' angle, which is why all the spin offs ignore her rantings.
I'm still waiting on a logical explaination why nobody uses the bog, except on Deep Space 9.

 

[XCV330]

I'm still waiting on a logical explaination why nobody uses the bog, except on Deep Space 9.

The same explanation that makes being a transporter operator the shittiest job in starfleet. Why they need someone at that console full time even though they don't transport people very often.

Why a douchebag like the guy in TSFS was stuck doing it.. why O'Brien got out of doing it as fast he could.

its all tied together.

it has to be true.

 

[uniderth]

What you call a fantasy I call the nightmare version of Star Trek. Any novelverse or fan production to try explain the unexplainable deserves derision. There is no logical explainaton for Turnabout Intruder if one insists on ignoring the 'Lester had a mental breakdown' angle, which is why all the spin offs ignore her rantings.
I'm still waiting on a logical explaination why nobody uses the bog, except on Deep Space 9.

I'm using the word "fantasy" in terms of "fictional," not something idealized or wished for.

I have no idea what "the bog is.

 

[Nyotarules]

The same explanation that makes being a transporter operator the shittiest job in starfleet.

Which is why an Asian officer is doing it in The Cage, its laundry duty 23rd century style. If we go down the 'Earth went back to its colonial roots' path, we all know colonialism goes hand in hand with sexist and racist attitudes.
Which would be funny since Star Trek is meant to be enlightened (than us) humans, get over their earth based prejudices and explores the galaxy making new friends and trying to not make even more enemies.
However its enlightened humans get over their prejudices to explore the galaxy but still have a problem dealing with humans that have a functioning womb and larger mammary glands.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

uses the bog

"You learn something every day" continues to pan out!

I have no idea what "the bog is.

I had to look it up.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bog

Spoiler

loo etc.

 

[Christopher]

I'm using the word "fantasy" in terms of "fictional," not something idealized or wished for.

Right. You're just trying to explore a hypothetical question as an intellectual exercise. We don't have to approve of a scenario in order to explore it; lots of fiction is dystopian.

The thing is, I don't think you can posit a version of Star Trek where Lester was correct without ignoring other parts of TOS, let alone the rest of the franchise. After all, Number One was Pike's first officer. She was a command-track officer, which has to mean she was eligible for command. Part of a first officer's job is to take over as commanding officer if something happens to the captain, so it is contradictory to say Number One could be first officer but not captain.

And any attempt to postulate a change between the time of "The Cage"/Discovery and the time of "Turnabout" doesn't work, because Lester was talking about the status quo that existed when she and Kirk were together in the past, some years earlier, although it's not clear exactly how long ago it was. (I was thinking it was at the Academy, which would put it before DSC, but Lester only says "at Starfleet.")

I have no idea what "the bog is.

British slang for a lavatory.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Originally, a bog is a "smelly wetland or pool", so it's not that hard to figure out since everyone has seen Labyrinth.

What you call a fantasy I call the nightmare version of Star Trek. Any novelverse or fan production to try explain the unexplainable deserves derision. There is no logical explainaton for Turnabout Intruder if one insists on ignoring the 'Lester had a mental breakdown' angle, which is why all the spin offs ignore her rantings.
I'm still waiting on a logical explaination why nobody uses the bog, except on Deep Space 9.

How many times did Kirk (and spock and Mcoy too) save the day from certain defeat by seducing the alien female Captain? 10 times? I used to know a lot more about TOS, but my brain is deflating...

This leads to three conclusions.

1. Starfleet needs sexy boys as Captain, to seduce all the female Alien Captains, who all seem to be into alien strange.

2. Starfleet is worried that the many alien sexyboy Captains will co-opt their "human" female captains, becuase that's just how space works it seems.

3. Janice was obviously talking about only herself, even if that wasn't the original spirit of her speech by the author.

 

[Harvey]

Mostly white. There's that east asian fellow in the transporter.

And a black man on the bridge later on, although he's an extra and not in very many shots.

 

[Maurice]

And a black man on the bridge later on, although he's an extra and not in very many shots.

I seemed to recall that but did not wish to say so without—bum bum BUM—fact checking.

 

[FederationHistorian]

One explanation I've heard is that another founding member of the Federation had rules against females serving as captains. And so as a compromise this rule was implimented. I think that even made it into one of the Star Trek fan series.

Its an interesting theory. But it basically narrows it down to Tellarites, since:

A) Vulcan and Andorian women have been shown to lead men. ENT is the best example.

B) There’s never actually been a female Tellarite seen on screen. Its always been male Tellarites.

And even so, DSC has basically retconned no women captains out of existence, so it doesn’t really matter.

The line basically take on different meanings as a result:
- Lester was nuts and perceived prejudice for her shortcomings.
- Starfleet captains are too busy for women, or more accurately, a long term relationship with one.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Problem fixed: Philippa Georgiou.

(Basically, I don't care how clumsily the 60s tried to reflect on its own shortcomings.)

 

[Captain Dunsel 19]

The only 'logical' reason would be society in the 2260s being similar to that of the 1960s and largely holding the view that women were unsuited/unable to hold such a position.

Yes that was the main reason for the line, also writers have to have some kind of 'foil' to work with. Often those plot devices do not fit with the overall message of the story (humans got it together in the 23rd century)

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

You know what they say, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned," and the more militant admirals wanted to give the Klingons a fighting chance in order to justify the building up of Starfleet

 

[Commishsleer]

Problem fixed: Philippa Georgiou.

(Basically, I don't care how clumsily the 60s tried to reflect on its own shortcomings.)

But Georgiou wasn't captain of a Starship (the elite ships) not that she couldn't have had she wanted to. But I'm thinking that Lester was referrring to Starships.
Here's my fan-fiction version of events for what happened in "Turnabout Intruder" . Please feel free to skip to the next comment.
Kirk and Lester were together at the Academy. Lester a year or two ahead of Kirk. Lester talked about herself being captain of a starship and Kirk being her first officer. Kirk went along with that thinking he'd serve under her until he got captaincy of his own ship if it were possible for them to serve together. She went for the elite command test that Merrick failed. She didn't fail for the same reason as Merrick though. She failed the psychological exam. There was a 10% chance that she would turn into a homicidal maniac and kill her crew. But of course they didn't tell her that was the reason. The dude that told her she failed also remarked that that year a lot of women had failed the exam that year (probably a descendent of Gene Roddenberry).
She rages back to Kirk saying they both should resign in protest. Kirk says for her to do the test again (although it won't make any difference) and that she could always be his chief Science Officer when he became captain. They split up and meet up later in life...
She interprets her failure as the failure of women in general in an 'All Boys" club. Perhaps Kirk doesn't counter with the female captains of the "Endevour" or "The Kongo" because hes had this fight with Lester before and always loses.

 

[BigDaveX]

What you call a fantasy I call the nightmare version of Star Trek. Any novelverse or fan production to try explain the unexplainable deserves derision. There is no logical explainaton for Turnabout Intruder if one insists on ignoring the 'Lester had a mental breakdown' angle, which is why all the spin offs ignore her rantings.

Is there any way that Lester's rantings can really be taken completely at face value? No, of course not, since it would mean that the Federation was somehow worse in terms of civil rights legislation than the USA was at the time the episode was produced, and I don't think even Roddenberry at his least enlightened would have intended that.

Could something have happened in the early days of Lester's career that temporarily made it much harder for women to attain command-level positions? Honestly, as much as I'd like to think it wouldn't happen, I can't really imagine there's no scenario in which it couldn't happen. People with questionable views and agendas get into positions of authority all the time (NOT naming examples), so it might be the case that at some point between Discovery and TOS, the Starfleet top brass ended up being made up of people who believed that only macho he-men deserved to be starship captains. Wouldn't even necessarily be representative of the wider views of the Federation population (in fact, I'd hope to hell that they weren't), but if they're the people handing out the promotions, a lot of perfectly capable women would miss out.

That said, I still prefer to believe that Lester was just barking mad, or at least someone completely unable to accept responsibility for their own failings.

 

[KennyB]

I hate to bring reality into the retcon fest but the creator and writing staff of TOS were WWII vets and people that lived through WWII and Korea, where the roles for women were MUCH less open than they are now, especially in the military. (Yes yes I know Starfleet isn't military). For them, they may not have even given it a second thought that a women couldn't be in commend. Nurses and yeomen were fine. Number One was the lone example of a woman on a commend track.......and she didn't make it out of the first pilot. Just COMPLETELY different times. Much like smoking INDOORS or in a restaurant was normal when I was a kid and now it's pretty much unimaginable. People wise up...........slowly.

 

[Pauln6]

Well the obvious answer is that the women were too busy being admirals and community leaders but as far as the Federation goes, we didn't see many of those either.

Taking a step back, only a third of the Federation crews are women. They bucked this trend in TMP but apart from that, Discovery is probably the first show to equalise the numbers.

So why are there half as many women as men? The reasons are given in Who Mourns for Adonais: child rearing. In the sixties, it would have been acceptable for men like Matt Decker to take missions away from their families, coming within living memory of two world wars. It would not have been as acceptable for women to do the same while the men looked after the family.

Lester talks about 'starship' captains. That's a particular type of Captain IMO, one engaging in longer term, longer distance missions. Perhaps there were other vessels that stayed closer to home with a much higher percentage of female captains than men.

Why the one third percentage remained in place in 90s Trek is a mystery. I put it down to casual incompetence in the casting and writing. I do give Discovery credit, despite its flaws, for bucking that trend.

 

[NCC-73515]

Must have been Lucero's fault (Miss "he was an idiot")

 

[Christopher]

(Yes yes I know Starfleet isn't military).

Of course it is. It's an armed service operated by a federal government and serving as the defense force of its nation. It has military ranks, structure, and discipline, and military institutions such as courts-martial. War is not its primary mission, but neither is it the primary mission of the US Coast Guard or the Japan Self Defense Force, and those are still militaries.