Spoilers On Seven and sexuality

[frankieteardrop]

38 pages of discussion and debate and people are still having to carefully explain the concept of sexual fluidity and that characters have histories and experiences that happen off-screen.

Kahless, give me strength.

You say, "write it into the show", but that's not the right approach to take. That's making a sign with an arrow and saying "look here, look what we did!" THAT'S bad writing. The fact that it's understated to the point that it's just considered normal is a much better way to approach it.

This is more or less the same point Michael Chabon made in a recent interview with Variety.

I'm inclined to agree that introducing character and relationship elements as organically as possible makes for better storytelling, but when it comes to LGBT inclusion, creatives are put in a tough spot because the subtle approach often fails. The average viewer is not fluent in queer coding, and many people have difficulty translating what would be obvious romantic indicators in a hetero pairing onto a same-sex pairing, so a lot will go over people's heads unless it's spelled out for them. That leaves the less elegant approach: overt references to the character's sexuality, deliberately drawing attention to it so audiences cannot miss that aspect of the character, which often feels clumsy, heavy-handed and unnatural.

For better or worse, Chabon and co. took the former approach for Picard, and predictably, it was too subtle for many viewers to pick up on. Had they gone the other way, I'm sure that would have drawn its share of complaints as well (though I don't think too many people would have minded some minor exposition for clarification, which would have mitigated a lot of confusion).

Based on some comments from Chabon and cast members on Instagram and in interviews, next season will take a more direct approach to sexuality in the 24th Century, among other things, which will hopefully bring an end to these circular arguments (though this is the internet, so I probably shouldn't hold my breath).

 

[F. King Daniel]

All hell is gonna break loose when Elnor "explores his sexuality" in season 2 as Chabon has said.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Looks like they pretend I'm not exist at all...

Yes, the persecution of straight white males is horrible.

Wait... You miss representation? That would be so fanwanky... (And I guess Rios and Narek don't count. And Jurati and Soji, if presumably straight women count, too.)

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Her performance might have been different if her workplace was not hostile and toxic.

What does that have to do with Seven's sexualtity? (Honest question, not trying to be snarky)

All hell is gonna break lose when Elnor "explores his sexuality" in season 2 as Chabon has said.

Oh sweet Jesus, I hope they won't make him straight, that would be so on-the-nose and shoehorned in...

 

[cosmic mouse]

Nope. It took 2,5 episodes of VOY to me to love Seven of Nine for years.
In PIC the same was with Hugh. On the first episode with his participation I was intrigued, on second became a fan. I didn't see him in TNG before.
The same was with Spock in TOS.
"Friends are friends, no matter how long you know them". (c)

Thanks for the clarification. Sounds like you just have a gripe with the character specifically in how they are presented based on your past experience. Since it's impossible for anyone previously familiar with Seven to know how the virgin eye might see her in Picard, then your stance is nothing but personal opinion, which is totally fine. There's nothing wrong with the manner in which the character was advanced. Maybe that was your point to begin with.

 

[Rainard Fox]

Yes, the persecution of straight white males is horrible.

Wait... You miss representation? That would be so fanwanky... (And I guess Rios and Narek don't count. And Jurati and Soji, if presumably straight women count, too.)

Wow, you talk about characters as if they were toys and you want your sister's favorite Barbie, applying to the fact she has enough other dolls.
I meant here people who don't experiment with their identity, stay in same relationship for decades, know that alcohol doesn't fix problems, etc. Who represent us? Riker? Till the moment he will be changed too because "things are changed"?

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Wow, you talk about characters as if they were toys and you want your sister's favorite Barbie applying to the fact she has enough other dolls.

Now I get where you are coming from. Even though you're projecting.

 

[fireproof78]

I meant here people who don't experiment with their identity, stay in same relationship for decades, know that alcohol doesn't fix problems, etc. Who represent us? Riker? Till the moment he will be changed too because "things are changed"?

People change. That is the nature of people.

 

[Rainard Fox]

People change. That is the nature of people.

People change because circumstances press them tragically, people break under pressure, it's very common, we can see it everywhere. I love to see in Star Trek role models people who don't break, who change by their own will, because they want to achieve something, like Seven or Doctor did in VOY. Do I want too much?

 

[fireproof78]

People change because circumstances press them tragically, people break under pressure, it's very common, we can see it everywhere. I love to see in Star Trek role models people who don't break, who change by their own will, because they want to achieve something, like Seven or Doctor did in VOY. Do I want too much?

Given what has happened within the Star Trek world I would say at this point yes.

 

[Makarov]

I think they got Seven's character kind of wrong honestly. A setback like Icheb's death for Seven would result in slipping back into her rigid borg ways, but in the show they just make her brood and drink like any other character. She says she struggles regaining her humanity but they didnt write her that way

 

[fireproof78]

I think they got Seven's character kind of wrong honestly. A setback like Icheb's death for Seven would result in slipping back into her rigid borg ways, but in the show they just make her brood and drink like any other character. She says she struggles regaining her humanity but they didnt write her that way

She had 20 years to develop other coping skills. Janeway was often pushing human "vices" on her. So, she explored them upon return to Earth. And they became the new coping skill.

 

[Danja]

I think they got Seven's character kind of wrong honestly. A setback like Icheb's death for Seven would result in slipping back into her rigid borg ways, but in the show they just make her brood and drink like any other character. She says she struggles regaining her humanity but they didnt write her that way

She left the Borg for a reason (she was a Borg QUEEN ... and she walked away).

There are places even Seven won't go.

 

[Jayson1]

Things can change. They don't have to change.

For somebody "to change" means try new arts or jobs, for somebody it means search for new relationship or identity, for somebody means due hair and make tattoo, for somebody try alcohol and drugs. It doesn't mean the same person should have intentions to try it all. And it doesn't mean that all the fans happy to see all the changes.

I appreciate Seven is being a vigilante now, but I'm not excited of drunken Seven. It's a new stereotype that cool female character have to drink like a fish, Jessica Jones, Starback, Valkyrie... well, now Seven is stereotypical modern female character. Honestly if I didn't watch VOY, I wouldn't understand what is interesting or special in this character at all.

I suppose I can see the sterotype angle and yes part of the appeal is built on our previous experience with the character but I don't see why being gay or bi would be a issue. What if she was written to be this weird eccentric type working at some Seti like lab observing space and she had a girlfriend who worked with her in the lab. Would it still be wrong even if you remove the kickass fighter women angle of the character?

Me I tend to look at her current version less as a sterotype and more of a archetype but all the characters are kind of like that and frankly most fiction characters tend to represent a certain type of character you can see plenty times over in other fiction. Rio's clearly isn't our first rogue swashbuckling hero type for example yet I do like the character still and that goes for all the characters.

Jason

 

[Guy Gardener]

What does that have to do with Seven's sexualtity? (Honest question, not trying to be snarky)

Since the beginning, some have said that there is a clearly present yet invisible subtext that Seven and Janeway want to get inside each other sexually.

Andrew Robinson decided that Garak was going to give Bashir some orgasms, without any one asking him to. It was his decision as an actor, that he did not share with his directors or the people paying him, until it far too late, and they were not happy about it.

The only reason that Jeri would do they same thing to a woman who was persecuting her to the point that she had to vomit before bedtime, is character assassination.

Think of someone you hate, now think about making love to them intimately for hours.

Jeri is amazing to hide all that bile.

 

[frankieteardrop]

Since the beginning, some have said that there is a clearly present yet invisible subtext that Seven and Janeway want to get inside each other sexually.

Andrew Robinson decided that Garak was going to give Bashir some orgasms, without any one asking him to. It was his decision as an actor, that he did not share with his directors or the people paying him, until it far too late, and they were not happy about it.

The only reason that Jeri would do they same thing to a woman who was persecution her to the point that she had to vomit before bedtime, is character assassination.

Think of someone you hate, now think about about making love to them intimately for hours.

Jeri is amazing to hide all that bile.

Mulgrew and Ryan did indeed have good chemistry, and if their on-set tensions ever threatened to get in the way of their performances, it didn't show. A testament to their professionalism. The Janeway/Seven relationship is one of my favorite things about VOY and learning that Mulgrew bullied Ryan throughout production definitely shattered some illusions I had about cast camaraderie. Fortunately, Mulgrew has since made it clear that her treatment of Ryan was misdirected frustration with sexist crap they both had to deal with behind-the-scenes, and they've made peace.

Regarding the "character assassination," I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but as far as i'm aware, Ryan and Mulgrew did not consciously play up any sapphic undertones to their characters' relationship, so it's not quite analogous to the Robinson situation.

On that note: from what I gather, the writers didn't have a problem with what Robinson was doing, they just weren't invested in that aspect of the character nearly as much as Robinson was, so they never bothered to force the issue with the people who would care (i.e. higher-ups in control of the franchise) and were content to leave it bubbling under the surface, which Behr expresses regret over in the DS9 doc.

Per Robert Hewitt Wolf:

The way I wrote him (and I think the way Andy so wonderfully played him), Garak was attracted to Bashir. He knew that attraction was not going to be returned (or even particularly noticed) and that was okay. He considered Bashir a friend and a protegee. There's nothing overt, there's no big flags waving or anything. It's all subtext.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Regarding the "character assassination," I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but as far as i'm aware, Ryan and Mulgrew did not consciously play up any sapphic undertones to their characters' relationship, so it's not quite analogous to the Robinson situation.

Even today, people's lives are ruined from being accused of being a homosexual whether they are a homosexual or not, depending on where they live in America or the rest of the world.

Andrew actually did it.

Meanwhile there is a strong movement insisting that Seven of Nine and Janeway were spooning between scenes.

There are equally wrong movements that think that Picard and Bev were ##ckbudd#es, and Ditto for Chakotay and Janeway.

Seven is a gay icon (on Voyager) for... What exactly?

Meanwhile on Picard she is up to her armpits in feisty women.

Gay at last , gay at last, thank god almighty that she is gay at last.

 

[Rainard Fox]

Mulgrew and Ryan did indeed have good chemistry, and if their on-set tensions ever threatened to get in the way of their performances, it didn't show. A testament to their professionalism. The Janeway/Seven relationship is one of my favorite things about VOY and learning that Mulgrew bullied Ryan throughout production definitely shattered some illusions I had about cast camaraderie. Fortunately, Mulgrew has since made it clear that her treatment of Ryan was misdirected frustration with sexist crap they both had to deal with behind-the-scenes, and they've made peace.

Regarding the "character assassination," I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but as far as i'm aware, Ryan and Mulgrew did not consciously play up any sapphic undertones to their characters' relationship, so it's not quite analogous to the Robinson situation.

Fascinating. I didn't know anything about actors' relationship, same time I know that people, who were in suffocating "Mother knows best" relationship with their mothers or grandmothers, are reading it easily. For them Janeway from season 4 is very jealous and chasing mother for Seven, even if Mulgrew did her best not to show it.
"For them"... alright, I still try to distance. "For us" actually.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Since the beginning, some have said that there is a clearly present yet invisible subtext that Seven and Janeway want to get inside each other sexually.

Andrew Robinson decided that Garak was going to give Bashir some orgasms, without any one asking him to. It was his decision as an actor, that he did not share with his directors or the people paying him, until it far too late, and they were not happy about it.

The only reason that Jeri would do they same thing to a woman who was persecuting her to the point that she had to vomit before bedtime, is character assassination.

Think of someone you hate, now think about making love to them intimately for hours.

Jeri is amazing to hide all that bile.

Ah, got it! Thank you for clarifying.

The thing is... I think subtext usually develops without the intenton of the actors, or even writers. Robinson, who saw it in the writing (even though there was probably no intent on their end) and decided to roll with it, is really an exception.

To be clear, I'm not a J/7er, but I definitely can see where they are coming from.

And they seem to be perfectly able to differentiate between the fictional characters, who in their opinion might be queer, and the actors. And I'm sure the actors are, too. So whatever bile may or may not arise within Ryan when thnking of Mulgrew, I doubt it extends to Janeway.

From her twitter, Jeri Ryan seems to be very comfortable with her queer/ queer-friendly followers. In fact, when after the handholding scene people were tweeting happy signs or words like "finally" with regards to Seven, she reacted with hearts and confirmations and such.

And Mulgrew... while her own (wonderful) character on OITNB was straight, I doubt she would have accepted a role in such a show (with heavy lesbian content) if she had any problems, or feared any repercussions from being thrown in with the queer lot.

So while it may be true that some actors' careers are still ruined by gay content, those two are not among them. I certainly don't think they would be ruined by subtext and the resulting subculture... I mean, people were slashing Kirk and Spock back then!

How the actors perceive their Trek characters is another thing. I doubt that Mulgrew sees Janeway as anything but straight, and her relationship with Seven as anything but friendship.

But their opinon (or mine) does not mean there is no subtext.

 

[Danja]

Seven is a gay icon (on Voyager) for... What exactly?

Being a strong, independent woman who doesn't feel the need to have a man to "complete" her life.