Boy, I hope you're right about that. The Section 31 concept just doesn't sit well with me as a running series. It starts to become tiresome after a multi-episode arc within another series.
Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x10 - "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
Boy, I hope you're right about that. The Section 31 concept just doesn't sit well with me as a running series. It starts to become tiresome after a multi-episode arc within another series.
Why would they avoid that? These are franchises made to make money. That is their reason to be.
And, even SW slowed its pacing down from a movie every year to every couple of years and now its focused more on Disney+ series.
So, maybe Trek can learn the right lessons.
I think so too. I think shorter seasons will allow for more stories to be told and greater flexibility in what they want to do. I don't see this as a bad thing.
It might be kind of interesting if they turn it into something like a Mission: Impossible kind of scenario, where they're using super-advanced tech, psy-ops and social engineering to acquire information, rather than serve as the seedy pustule-filled underbelly of a dystopian and hypocritical Federation, which seems to be what it's become in every incarnation of its existence since DS9.
S31 has been overdone big time at this stage. It worked when it was one guy showing up in the shadows to Bashir or whoever but now we get a mega battleship from JJ and a whole secret fleet in DIS.Too much exposure ruins the fun and the mystery (Similar problem with Borg) of a secret shadow organisation.
Also can we please bury the mirror universe for a while now too
I agree on the Mirror Universe but am still morbidly curious about S31.
G
Gonzo
Guest
Yeah the Mirror Universe always felt half baked to me.
S31 looks promising but I can understand why some would prefer to avoid it, its always been best used sparingly in other Star Trek, I am not so sure it will work as a basis for an entire series.
A lot is going to ride on the story arcs they have planned for it plus they have to bring back Georgiou from the future if she is going to be the main character.
Compare that to a Pike/Enterprise series which looks to me to be a sure fire winner based on what we saw of the characters (Pike, Una, Spock) in Discovery S2, still we could end up with both which is fine by me.
Hopefully the shut down will not affect the shows too much.
S31 looks promising but I can understand why some would prefer to avoid it, its always been best used sparingly in other Star Trek, I am not so sure it will work as a basis for an entire series.
A lot is going to ride on the story arcs they have planned for it plus they have to bring back Georgiou from the future if she is going to be the main character.
Compare that to a Pike/Enterprise series which looks to me to be a sure fire winner based on what we saw of the characters (Pike, Una, Spock) in Discovery S2, still we could end up with both which is fine by me.
Hopefully the shut down will not affect the shows too much.
Except for the first sentence, I agree with everything in this post. So you just saved me a lot of typing.
G
Gonzo
Guest
That first sentence was a bit of a generalisation so I will be more specific.Except for the first sentence, I agree with everything in this post. So you just saved me a lot of typing.
There were episodes that did it well but it always worked best in small doses, I was always up for MU but I must admit the extended MU trip we got in Discovery S1 put me off a bit.
It felt like it was too soon to break out the MU stuff, I think it would have been better to leave the MU and Shrooms for later seasons rather than cram them all in S1.
Most of the DS9 MU stuff was good and it worked well (I can't remember a bad one), same for the time travel episodes they did like Trials and Tribble-ations.
The ENT Mirror Universe episodes were the best since TOS. And still are.
The only mirror universe episode that I considered to be really good was the original. Going down from there, Discovery, Enterprise and Deep Space Nine. This might be the only thing in all of Trek canon that I think Enterprise did better than Deep Space Nine.
I gave my take on "In the Mirror, Darkly" (ENT), two years ago, in these two posts here and here.
I was posting as I was watching. The only two ENT episodes I've re-watched in 10 years. I tried to make my recap as entertaining as possible. "Wait a minute. You're not a fan of the show. You didn't rip it to shreds, did you?" No, no, nothing like that, don't worry.
I gave them a 6 and an 8 respectively.
Part I
Part II
I was posting as I was watching. The only two ENT episodes I've re-watched in 10 years. I tried to make my recap as entertaining as possible. "Wait a minute. You're not a fan of the show. You didn't rip it to shreds, did you?" No, no, nothing like that, don't worry.
I gave them a 6 and an 8 respectively.
Part I
Shifting gears. I'm watching ENT's "In the Mirror Darkly". Nothing really that wrong with it, but I still like the DSC episodes better.
I don't know. Everything seems so matter-of-fact and by the numbers in "In the Mirror Darkly" so far. The twist on the end of FC is nice. But then we have Phlox doing torture. Sato and Forrest having some sort of relationship. Then Archer moves against Forrest, takes command, and now they're heading for the Defiant. Whatever Archer's got in mind, he's planned it out. But it all seems "check, check, check!" I like Mayweather's look. And Trip's.
Even in darkness, the NX-01's interiors seem brightly lit in the foreground. They should've gone for total darkness.
If this were DSC, there would've been a lot more build-up and what we got here would've been at the end of the episode instead of 10 minutes in. Just a comparison between how the two series are. DSC wants to build things up. ENT treats the build-up as set-up. It's less about the tension and more about getting where they need to be.
Scott Bakula's acting. He's okay as Prime Archer. I'm not quite sure what he's going for as Mirror Archer. Something seems off. Like Scott Bakula was afraid of making Archer look like Dr. Evil so he reigned it in by going a little too far. Mirror Archer seems a little too measured. He should seem more threatening and intimidating. I'm not getting that sense at all when he's talking to T'Pol.
Now Archer's making out with Sato. Say all you want about Burnham and Tyler but at least I feel tension between them. At least I feel emotion. Same with Stamets and Culber. But this? Sato: "I'm yours now!" Archer: "Let's kiss!" That easy? Sato should play hard to get. Or at least there should be some raw intensity. Like Archer is super pent-up and needs release. I'm getting no sense of that. It's just, "Hey, let's make out." Even Sato pulling out the knife feels too clinical. And Archer's, "Let's keep our relationship on a professional level" feels too neatly pat, on top of being saved by the bell.
So we get to the Tholians... I do like the Tholian! But I'm just not buying the NX-01 crew as evil. The Mirror Shenzou crew felt evil. The Charon felt evil. The NX-01? Not so much. It feels like acting. Ugh. You can tell this was made in the '00s. "Torture works" was the motto of Dick Cheney and the Bush Administration. If this were made today, the Tholian never would've cooperated no matter how much Archer tortured it.
Why didn't Archer kill Forrest from the get-go? Advancement through assassination isn't just a means for advancement, it's bad-ass and you get to show much of a bad-ass you are. Archer is way too restrained. It's like all he has is some chip on his shoulder and he likes to whisper...
Forrest: "Kill me and she'll never forgive you!" Meaning Hoshi. And Archer lets him live. What the fuck?! Really?! Really?!?!! Come on! He's too soft to be a Terran. Forrest has the killer look in his eye. This isn't the Prime Universe. It's the Mirror Universe. Archer deserves to be taken down if Forrest gets out.
The torture scene with Trip was beyond lame. And then we cut to Hoshi in bed with Archer saying "It hasn't been that good in a long time." Ummmm... even if you don't want to show anything, in TOS, they had an episode called "Bread and Circuses" that shows Kirk in bed with a woman. It implies everything, shows nothing, and still works like a charm. What they show in "In the Mirror Darkly" has no charm at all. Please stop whispering, Archer.
Nice touch how, like in TOS, in ENT the ship's computer has a male voice in the Mirror Universe.
Forrest's escape with T'Pol busting him out. Phaser fight in the corridor! Archer, wimp that he is, runs off. Cut to the bridge. Yeah. I like the uniforms in the Disco Mirror Universe waaaaaaaaaay better. It's not even close.
Forrest is on the bridge and back in command. It's bad I'm cheering that Forrest is in command. I don't think he's who I'm supposed to be rooting for.
Archer reaches the bridge. And I think I've finally figured out who he's trying to sound like! Snake Plissken! "Call me Snake!"
I'm just noticing that the guy who plays Admiral Forrest looks like he should be on MacGuyver. The one from the '80s. I don't know why. He has that type of a look.
The torture chamber in ENT looks way too bland. The one in DSC at least looks like Spencer's at the mall. And that compliments the DSC Mirror Uniforms since they look like they're from Hot Topic. That's fun. Cool Trivia, though. Reed invented the torture chamber. I guess it makes sense then why the one in ENT has no style. Reed strikes me as being way too utilitarian and to-the-point.
Starfleet wants Forrest to proceed to Archer's destination. Instead of slamming him to the ground, Forrest should've punched him in the face.
A briefing room scene in a Mirror Universe episode just feels wrong. If this were DSC, everything Archer is summing up here would've been shown in an episode right before this one.
Why would T'Pol tell Trip what she did to him? It makes no logical sense to admit to manipulating someone. It would've been better -- and more dramatic -- if Trip were suspicious and he had to figure it out. But T'Pol's like, "Nope. This is what I did!" Way to kill drama, way to kill tension. Worse is that the scene is started off with T'Pol reporting something to Trip. This is Berman-Era Trek through and through, with everything I don't like about it in one scene. Along with the briefing room scene. It's reminding me of exactly what I don't like about this style of Star Trek.
Now the NX-01 is cloaking... and it's about to reach its destination, which is... Saturn?!
Wait, no. It's not Saturn. It just looks like it. It's the Enterprise! Umm, I mean: the Defiant!
Now to see how the TOS look holds up in the 21st Century. Even though it's 2005 and still the Bush Era. The post-9/11, pre-Katrina Bush Era no less. Not to mention Social Media and Web 2.0 are in their infancy. But it's still the 21st Century.
Okay. The TOS Constitution Class looks other-timely in ENT but it works because the ship is from 100 years in the future. So it should look other-timely. In DSC, you can't get away with a Constitution Class Starship looking other-timely because it's supposed to be the same era. So either DSC had to look like TOS or TOS had to look like DSC. Discovery went with the latter.
Now they're back in the Briefing Room. Talking about the Defiant. And Trip's whispering too. Archer finally gets the killer look when he clearly has no intention of destroying the Defiant when Forrest orders him to. How could Forrest not see this? Is he really that dumb? Apparently. He should've killed Archer for insubordination. But, anyway...
Okay. So the landing party is on the Defiant. Wait a minute. This is Berman Trek. So the away team is on the Defiant... and I have to say the darkened TOS sets work. The uniforms, on the other hand, don't.
Sorry to see the Tholian die. I would've liked to have seen it escape. Even though it wouldn't have been able to survive in normal temperature. It probably would've frozen to death. I guess it wasn't long for this episode.
And they're on the Defiant's bridge! Darkened sets or not, I can't see this being the main setting of a Star Trek series made Today. For these two episodes, it's okay. But for something permanent, like it would've been on Discovery? I don't think it would've worked.
What does work is that Tholian Web! Love it.
The music gets good as the NX-01 tries to attack The Tholian Web. Shit's about to Get Real.
I'm not going to lie. Even though I don't think it would work for Discovery, I love seeing a TOS-style Constitution Class bridge with high production values in action here. This is cool.
The music gets good again, we have a Constitution Class ship, sparks are flying on the NX-01, and we've got a Tholian Web... then Forrest has to ruin it with, "Can you vent the anti-matter?" Arrgh!!!! You're spoiling the mood, Captain.
Vaughn Armstrong's acting is a little shaky when he orders the NX-01 crew to abandon ship.
As the surviving NX-01 crew watches their ship destroyed from afar, aboard the Defiant, To Be Continued flashes across the screen.
Overall, I'm going to have to give "In the Mirror Darkly, Part I" a 6 out of 10. It was "okay" but too many things that I highlight above keep me from calling it "good". This was the first time I'd watched an episode of Enterprise in almost eight years.
Part II
Continuing on with "Into the Mirror Darkly, Part II".
The main big draw here is watching the crew on a TOS Constitution Class bridge. And that they're in a Tholian Web. The bridge looks super colorful too. I like it. Great intro music.
Back to the episode. Now they're laying on the music really thick. DOM! DOM-DOM!!! DOM!!!! The Defiant takes a hit. Everything looks great but Trip's scars look better in the dark. The Defiant's tactical systems come online and they destroy the Tholian Web! The battle ends, and title of the episode appears.
Now they're trying to figure out all they can about the Defiant, get everything on it up-and-running, and Archer's researching the history. Had this episode aired a year later, I could've seen it being the 40th Anniversary Episode. I still have problems with Scott Bakula's portrayal as Mirror Archer but continually mentioning it would be beating a dead horse.
So during the first act of this episode we're in the slower part of story, while the crew acclimates to the Defiant and goes about normal shipboard business. If this is supposed to be fun, there shouldn't be a lull. The only explanation I have -- other than the different production style and pacing of the Berman Era -- is that they want the audience to savor the TOS designs. What can I say? I'm used to Discovery where nothing lets up and they shift from one thing to the next, whether it's going from action to tension to drama to humor to something else. DSC never just sits there. On a positive note, I am enjoying looking at the sets.
Oh! Looks like I spoke too soon... some ensign climbs up a Jefferie's Tube in a scene that reminds me of First Contact. "Paul? Paaaauuul?!" And Ensign Nobody gets killed off. FC did it better.
Cut to the bridge. Everyone's in TOS Uniforms now. I don't know. Is this really the way some people want Discovery to look? Anyway, we'll agree to disagree. Moving on...
An interrogation scene. And there's a Gorn on the loose. Mirror Archer sure has an inferiority complex for someone who thinks the Federation is made up of fools, including his counterpart in the Prime Universe. He's starting to see things. I think he's getting loony.
Confession Time: I like TOS's "Arena" but I've never been too crazy about the Gorn. And the Gorn in "In the Mirror Darkly" reminds me of something I'd see in a cartoon I used to watch when I was kid called Thundercats, down to the voice. I could see this Gorn in Castle Plun-Darr or taking orders from Mumm-Ra the Ever Living.
Okay. It's official. Archer has his imaginary self talking to him. He's not getting loony. He is loony. Probably not as loony as late-DS9 Dukat, but we'll see.
Good Scene as the MACOs, headed by Reed, go searching for the Gorn. Good pacing, good music, good tension. And the Gorn moves in for the kill! Archer fights the Gorn! All Archer needs now is for his shirt to get ripped. Sucks that they use TECH, like enhancing the gravity to end the fight. Moving on...
Another slow scene. I like that Phlox and T'Pol are feasting on TOS Starburst Cubes while comparing notes about the two universes. Then that ends with a Red Alert.
The Defiant, with its 23rd Century technology, heads into battle. And makes short work of its enemies while impressing Starfleet at the same time. Archer's growing into Being Evil. He lets the last Andorian ship go because "I want the other rebels to know what happened here." He's channeling the Female Shapeshifter from DS9.
Finally! Archer kills someone above him! "You're relieved Admiral." Then he vaporizes him. That's what I'm talking about! Where the Hell was this guy last episode?
Archer rallies the troops. They're getting their groove on!
When T'Pol tries to get Soval to help her to make a move against Archer, she mentions that Archer would lay waste to Vulcan. That line takes on a new meaning with the 2009 film. Added to the fact that Archer seems crazy now since he's seeing things. So Mirror Archer's like Dukat, the Female Shapeshifter, and Nero!
Now we have a bedroom scene between Archer and Sato that actually works. I like the lighting. It's back-lit and all we see in the foreground are silhouettes of them. While they talk about getting rid of T'Pol. So now both sides are planning against each other. Plotting to kill each other. It seems like the writers have finally warmed up to what the Mirror Universe should be.
"I've never been the consort of an Emperor before..."
So now we cut to the bridge and we finally have some real tension. The shot focusing on T'Pol was very deliberate. She's escorted off the bridge and Archer's large, in charge, and in command. I kind of hope he blows up the Admiral who's yelling at him after he demands that Starfleet surrender to him. He's the villain as in The Villain. I'm rooting for T'Pol and everyone else to take him down. So a villain he is. Last episode I wasn't feeling it. This episode, I am.
Sato vs. T'Pol. I'm kind of surprised Sato's holding her own in this fight... Then she's blasted down. The fights in this series are too short. They need to be longer. This fight in particular probably should've lasted twice as long as it did.
Now Archer's interrogating T'Pol, who says, "You will not prevail."
Soval learned about the mechanics of the Defiant really fast. He's a pro, instructing Phlox. Oh, well. Once Phlox does what he's supposed to, Soval attacks the Defiant. Big Berman Trek Battle. Sparks fly everywhere. Trip finds and stops Phlox and undoes what Phlox did. Primary Systems on the Defiant come back online. This feels like Star Trek As Usual again... then Archer destroys Soval's ship.
Archer's feeling like a Manly Man and he's in bed with Sato. Some great shots. Feels sensual. They drink. In hoping to become the Emperor with the help of the Defiant, Archer says the Empire is loyal to the Emperor. "They don't care who the Emperor is." Archer laughs. Then it's clear he's been poisoned with the drink... and Sato is now Empress Sato!
Once this episode got going, it got going. With only occasional lapses. I give it an 8.
.
.
.
Now I also want to say, I don't see how anyone who likes these episodes, especially Part II, doesn't like DSC's Mirror Episodes. Discovery does what Part II of this Enterprise episode did even better. Tonally, I could just jump right into the Disco Episodes from here.
I feel like dismissing the DSC Mirror Universe episodes so casually has less to do with the episodes themselves and more to do with what they think of the series in general. And no, the DSC episodes do not cover the same ground. They do more with the Mirror Universe and in their own way. Just like ENT dealt with the Mirror Universe in its own way.
Same here. DS9 handled it horribly. And, to use a common argument I've heard 'round these parts, The TOS comics did the story better.
If they reboot DS9, Section 31 would work better as legit black ops section of Federation intelligence not Starfleet intelligence. Make it like the IMF, a black ops answerable only to the President and a select few from the Federation Defense commitee
G
Gonzo
Guest
Well my thoughts on the MU Enterprise episodes can be summed up simply.
I had completely forgotten about then until you brought them up.
In fact I didn't even consider the series when I was walking down memory lane looking for MU episodes.
Make of that what you will.
I had completely forgotten about then until you brought them up.
In fact I didn't even consider the series when I was walking down memory lane looking for MU episodes.
Make of that what you will.
And not enough goatees for my likingWell my thoughts on the MU Enterprise episodes can be summed up simply.
I had completely forgotten about then until you brought them up.
In fact I didn't even consider the series when I was walking down memory lane looking for MU episodes.
Make of that what you will.
This is a nitpick, but it has been bothering me.
The Romulan fleet's position is contradicted in this episode. Either they are in the atmosphere, where they can be seen with the visible eye from the surface of the planet, or, they are far above the surface of the planet, in deep space, where they would not be seen from the surface of the planet, as it is daytime and the androids do not have telescopes.
The Romulan fleet's position is contradicted in this episode. Either they are in the atmosphere, where they can be seen with the visible eye from the surface of the planet, or, they are far above the surface of the planet, in deep space, where they would not be seen from the surface of the planet, as it is daytime and the androids do not have telescopes.
The sneaky get around is that androids do have really good eyes.
The section 31 series is a go. Michelle yeoh is a large star in many parts of the world and they want to use that aspect to expand the Star Trek audience. The only reason production on it was delayed was because she had a lot of other commitments that they were working around. She wants the series and they want the series. With the Covid-19 situation; I'm sure everything on CBSAA, and Hollywood production in general will be shuffled around; but I doubt they'll drop the Section 31 series; and I too hope we get a Pike series <--- But the latter depends on whether or not they can work out the details of getting Anson Mount to commit to returning.
