This is your 20th year here..........You should be used to it.
They prefered to sing "Elnor Rigby"..........I'll see myself out. ( I should get points for that track coming off your profile pic LP)
Spoilers The Problem with Elnor
- Thread starter TJ Sinclair
- Start date
This is your 20th year here..........You should be used to it.
They prefered to sing "Elnor Rigby"..........I'll see myself out. ( I should get points for that track coming off your profile pic LP)
They prefered to sing "Elnor Rigby"..........I'll see myself out. ( I should get points for that track coming off your profile pic LP)
It's no good until you come up with lyrics
It's no good until you come up with lyrics
Ah, look at all the lonely xBs
Ah, look at all the lonely xBs
Elnor Rigby
Picks up his knife on Vashti where beheading has been
Lives here with nuns
Waits at the window
Wearing the sword that he keeps in a jar by the door
Who is it for?
All the lonely xBs
Where do they all come from?
All the lonely xBs
Where do they all belong?
Qowat Milat nuns
Writing the words of a sermon that no man will hear
No one comes near
Look at them working
Binding their swords in the night when there's nobody there
What do they care?
All the lonely xBs
Where do they all come from?
All the lonely xBs
Where do they all belong?
Ah, look at all the lonely xBs
Ah, look at all the lonely xBs
Elnor Rigby
He chose to live, was not buried along with his name
Absolute Candor,
Admiral Picard
Fills him with joy as he binds his sword to a cause
No one was awed
All the lonely xBs (Ah, look at all the lonely xBs)
Where do they all come from?
All the lonely xBs (Ah, look at all the lonely xBs)
Where do they all belong?
I smell a Grammy!
I like Elnor a lot, but it's true, he has not been critical to the story. That being said, the show has been good about firing its Chekov's guns, so I expect a pay off for having Elnor, 7, and the cube in the very end.
On the other hand, Chabon intended to include a lot more about the Narak and Narissa, but it was the first stuff to get cut for time constraints. The same thing might be happening to Elnor, as in there might have been a lot more written for him and it all got cut, so now he is just there to carry a viewpoint, like Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Arc.
This points to the real problem the show is suffering, time constraints. The show suffers under the weekly release rate because the story is so drawn out, and not enough story happens per episode because in part due to the 45 minute allotment. A lot of this could be fixed by tighter pacing more in line with old shows, or releasing the whole season at once. This show is designed for streaming, yet isn't allowed to play to those advantages.
On the other hand, Chabon intended to include a lot more about the Narak and Narissa, but it was the first stuff to get cut for time constraints. The same thing might be happening to Elnor, as in there might have been a lot more written for him and it all got cut, so now he is just there to carry a viewpoint, like Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Arc.
This points to the real problem the show is suffering, time constraints. The show suffers under the weekly release rate because the story is so drawn out, and not enough story happens per episode because in part due to the 45 minute allotment. A lot of this could be fixed by tighter pacing more in line with old shows, or releasing the whole season at once. This show is designed for streaming, yet isn't allowed to play to those advantages.
There's potentially 2 more seasons to get Elnor going, 10 episode seasons. Not every character is going to get developed as fast or as well as others.
I much preferred it when the notification emails would actually include the response, instead of just letting you know there was one!
In any case, my major issue isn't that Elnor is underdeveloped -- though he most certainly is. My point is that as much as I like the Qowat Milat in theory, I think using one of them as the Romulan on board the crew is a mistake. I would much prefer a more typical refugee than a naive super warrior, as I think that would be both more relevant and far more interesting. In my estimation, Elnor as he is, from the ground up, is a missed opportunity to have a more meaningful perspective and commentary.
Possibly, but he is also representative of Picard's failure in a nutshell-Elnor grew up a more cloistered life rather than having a mentor figure like Picard. I think that Elnor becoming who he is, outside of Picard's influence, is the exact feeling that you are having-Picard is going, "Oh, missed opportunity there."
Mileage will vary, but I think that there is a deliberate aspect of missed opportunity in Elnor's relationship with Picard.
I'm fairly certain that chabon mentioned some stuff about Elnor exploring his sexuality, which is apparently something the character has 0 experience with. The comment itself was in response to lgbt representation after 'Stardust City rag' . It seemed implied to occur this season but with only one episode to go I guess its on the cards for next season.
You risk ending up with someone along the lines of Neelix ("Well, I can cook ...").
Average person, not terribly entertaining.
We have plenty of other examples of Picard's failure. The type of character I suggest would still do that, while also serving to give us an inside perspective on the Romulan tragedy - and the contemporary social commentary - that Elnor as he is does not. I'm missing the "Romulan survivor" perspective, and I think given everything else the show is exploring, that omission is quite significant.
You mistake "average" for being unexceptional. The character I'm suggesting can still be every bit as exceptional a person as any other character in Trek, while coming from a more "average" background that Elnor, in order to give a greater look at the Romulan situation, and how Picard's actions effected them, than we're getting with Elnor. "Average background" does not mean "completely nondescript character." Star Trek is full of "average" Starfleet officers who are nonetheless exceptional people in their own right.
McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, Kira, O'Brien, Quark, Damar, they're all "ordinary" people from "ordinary" backgrounds of their culture. They don't have extraordinary backgrounds the way that Spock, Worf or Data do. They aren't portrayed as "epic demigods" the way Kirk and Picard were. But they're still exceptional as people and as characters. Elnor falls more in that Spock and Worf category than in the Kira and Damar category, and based on the background of the show and for the story they're telling this season, having a "Kira" kind of Romulan as a regular, I think is more important than having a fun, naive, adorable, sweet elf warrior.
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I don't know if I completely agree even if I wanted that perspective. I mean, I certainly want more Romulans and their perspectives, but we really had both perspectives in "Absolute Candor." You had the former Romulan senator who wanted resolution by combat and you have Elnor who is willing to go forward with Picard despite the pain of abandonment. He even calls Picard's mission a "lost cause." One is of hatred and the other of acceptance in the wake of personal pain.
As much as I love social commentary Picard has done a good job of making this mission deeply personal and I prefer it a little bit more because I actually care that Picard's failure is pretty much staring him in the face at all turns. Its more interesting character study for my money. Individual tastes will vary.
Elnor would probably rather not dwell on it (it's too painful).
I think pairing him with Seven of Nine is a good idea. They have a great deal in common (they've both lost their parents).
I like the character but I do feel he has been underused this season of the show. I'm hoping he has a larger role in the second season. Given how short the seasons are, though, developing all the characters to their full potential is difficult. So, I'm willing to be a bit patient.
Yes, the former senator was there, and we had the obvious sense that people on Vashti mistrusted and resented him (apart from the nuns). But largely, that's it. That's like saying "Ensign Ro" was sufficient as a one-off, instead of the continuing exploration of those themes we got in Kira or other characters on DS9.
There's absolutely no reason why it can't be both. Social commentary is very present in Picard. I'm just saying I wanted and expected more of a look at the Romulan survivors than a single episode that primarily dealt with a very atypical group of them. Especially when *this* aspect of his personal failure - the most significant reason for, and consequence of, his abandoning Starfleet - isn't in his face all the time because Elnor and Picard have largely been separated far more than we see them together in these episodes.
Elnor grew up essentially safe and well-cared for on Vashti because of Zani and the Qowat Milat. Was life easy? No. But he probably had it much better than the rest of the survivors we see in the background, and especially those on other worlds who fled after the Federation completely abandoned them. Remember, Vashti was settled with Starfleet's help. How much worse was it for other survivors trying to survive after Starfleet stopped helping?
To me it feels like they're paying "lip-service" to the concept of a "refugee" without actually giving us one as a character. Elnor doesn't fit that role in the narrative, because his life and upgrinding are so far outside the norm of the Romulan survivors. That's what's bothering me.
Elnor isn't a bad character, and he's quite likeable as far as he goes, but I cannot help but wish we'd gotten something different, something more meaningful, than this adorable space elf.
If it works for you, that's great. It just doesn't really satisfy me at all, not when the kind of character I propose would have been so easy to fit in to the show in Elnor's place.
I think that is the angle they are pushing. Elnor will look to seven as a mother figure and he will become the surrogate son. I think Elnor will help Seven recover the humanity she felt she had lost after Icheb's death.
And this is absolutely a valid purpose for the character, if that's the way they go. In one of his most recent Q&A's Chabon said he'd proposed a Seven and Elnor spin-off, but no one else on the production team took him seriously. He actually meant it.
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