Spoilers The Problem with Elnor

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by TJ Sinclair, Mar 22, 2020.

  1. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    I honestly want all of that. But, I genuinely want it to have its own season with none of the synth and Borg BS.
     
    Kzinti likes this.
  2. TJ Sinclair

    TJ Sinclair Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2000
    Location:
    There and back again...
    On this, we agree. In a perfect world, that's what I'd want. But with so little time in which to work, I'm afraid we'll have to be content that the producers will probably split the focus.

    I don't know that I'd go so far as to call it "BS". A show about Patrick Stewart "saying goodbye" to the role of Jean-Luc Picard is going to hit on certain touchstones. The Borg are perhaps the single most important one. Data's death is another. Linking those seems natural, and putting the whole thing in the context of the Romulan supernova also feels like something necessary because up until now that's the only thing we knew about the post-Nemesis era. So there's reasons for everything to be here like it is, and honestly they're dong a better job of integrating it all than I expected. And the opening scene of the series, establishing a sort of metaphysical link between "All Good Things", Nemesis and the "now" of Picard was utterly brilliant.

    I loved episode one, though I wish the Soji reveal had been put off, so Picard and the audience could both have had more time to process and mourn Dahj's death.

    But I absolutely hated most things about episode two. The concept of the Zhat Vash at that time just felt like another case of "the old boogeyman isn't good enough anymore, so let's make one he's afraid of," that kind of thing has been done over and over and over. But after a while, the concept actually clicked, even if I don't appreciate Narek and Narissa as characters (or actors) all that much. There were more obvious ways that they could have gone with it, and they avoided all of those, so I'm happy with where we've ended up, for the most part.

    The one thing I really did love about episode two was Laris going all CSI: Romulan. I love that character, and Orla Brady the actress, so much. I'm so glad both she and Zhaban survived episode three -- I was really expecting one of them to die -- and I hope they're both still there when Picard makes it back to Earth. Or that we'll see them again if he doesn't return to Earth before the end of the series.

    Episode three was better, and episode 4 is where we meet Elnor. I liked the story, I liked the characters, but it felt like all forward motion stopped, so it bugged me. Then we get a stretch of awesomeness from episodes 5, 6 and 7, and then the necessary exposition of episode 8 so the two part finale can tell its story without having to waste time explaining the mystery so far and can just get on with it already.

    So for me the first four episodes are uneven (one great, one bad, one decent, one slow), the next three are great, the eighth is necessarily slower and talky, but still good at it IMO. And then we had part one of the finale, which... I liked, I guess. It felt a bit uneven, but again, viewing it in context without part two, it's not going to play as well. We'll see how it goes, when the finale goes live in about an hour. Hopefully we're both satisfied. :)

    Incidentally, this will be the only time I've watched a Picard episode without my boyfriend first. There was someone infected at his work, so now we're quarantined away from each other waiting out two weeks because I have an autoimmune disorder and can't risk seeing him until we're sure he's clear.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
    Turtletrekker likes this.
  3. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2003
    Location:
    Tacoma, Washington
    I wish the two of you health and a quick reunion.
     
  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    I call it BS because I'm fatigued of Borg. In my opinion going from the Romulan refugee plot was a weird place to start going in to the synth plot.
    I will disagree that it meshes naturally. However, this series has impressed me with its ability to take disparate elements and weave them together in a decent way.

    But, I would be happy to leave the Borg behind.
     
    Danja and Kilana2 like this.
  5. Kilana2

    Kilana2 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2015
    Location:
    Erlangen, Germany
    The show has shown us a diffent side of the Romulans so far, and I like it.
    But I have to agree - no more Borg.
     
  6. TJ Sinclair

    TJ Sinclair Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2000
    Location:
    There and back again...
    Beginning with "Descent," the Borg progressively lost their teeth each time we saw them, especially over the last half of Voyager. They've never been more terrifying or threatening or successful as antagonists from a narrative perspective than they were in "The Best of Both Worlds," and every subsequent appearance has cheapened and weakend them as a concept, apart from, "I, Borg," which was a valid Trekkian examination of who they are underneath the "villainy."

    Even First Contact just used them in as a form of generic zombie, and for me, introducing the concept of the Queen robbed them of their uniqueness as a foe. If you personify a force of nature that was intended to represent the loss of of self, you inherently weaken the concept and make it far less scary.

    So yes, I've been tired of the Borg since 1993, but for a show focused on Jean-Luc Picard, they simply must be dealt with. And Picard has done it well, by *not* showing us the same old Borg Collective as the villain it always is, but by following up on "I, Borg" far better than "Descent" did, and giving us this kind of very personal, intentional examination of them. But now that we've done that, yes, it's time to move in other directions.
     
    Seven of Five and MrPicard like this.
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    I disagree on this point so strongly. The Borg were never a "must be dealt with" since First Contact. Picard had been able to put to rest a lot of the trauma and pain.
    Now...
    ...I agree on this point, but that was an unexpected surprise, and certainly not one that "must" be dealt with. I would argue that the refugee plot is much more of a must than anything to do with the Borg. That Picard did well with the Borg in spite of this limitation is commendable. But, the Borg and the synths were unnecessary to my mind.
     
  8. TJ Sinclair

    TJ Sinclair Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2000
    Location:
    There and back again...
    Wow, what a simplistic perspective on the complex nature of trauma and recovery.

    Beyond that, in a show with a stated purpose of examining the character when he's faced with impending mortality, to not deal with the single most significant event that we ever see happen to Picard in the character's entire history would be a failure of narrative conceptualization.
     
    MrPicard likes this.
  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    In a narrative sense, yes. From a realistic point of view I can see the argument of having Picard continue to work through that trauma and would normally agree with it. But, the idea that is "must be" from a narrative sense is one that I struggle with.

    As much as I champion realism in my fiction Trek has not historically dealt with trauma in a realistic fashion. And, even if we deal with trauma that doesn't necessitate the Borg returning in a physical fashion.
    Completely disagree but the story turned out well so I am glad for that.
     
  10. Go-Captain

    Go-Captain Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Having seen the final episode I think Elnor's perceptiveness and openness should have been utilized with the characters learning to trust and exploit it. It would have been nice for Rios and Raffi to look to Elnor to decide whether they should extend their trust. Instead they decided on their own and Elnor is just along for the ride like much of the season.

    Raffi and Elnor should be an unstoppable interrogation team, because nothing will get past Elnor and Raffi would know all the right questions to ask. It could have been a great scene.
     
    TJ Sinclair likes this.
  11. Danja

    Danja Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Location:
    Unimatrix 259
    Elnor is also young and inexperienced in the ways of the outside world.
     
  12. Rainard Fox

    Rainard Fox Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2019
    Location:
    Federation
    I'm afraid not. The responsibility Elnor took for Hugh was the moment of his actual moral growing. It was perfect moment, for me it was the peak of the entire season. Hugh's death was like... go back to your sandbox, kid, cry and call mommy.
     
    TJ Sinclair, Danja and fireproof78 like this.
  13. Rainard Fox

    Rainard Fox Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2019
    Location:
    Federation
    You've made my day! :rommie: Would you mind if I share a link to the post in my Twitter?
     
    Danja likes this.
  14. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Location:
    UK
    I like Elnor, it's just a shame that his screen time has been eaten away by the short length of the season. I hope he develops more in S2.
     
    Kilana2 and Danja like this.
  15. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    The visitor's bullpen
    Sure, go ahead :)
     
  16. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Location:
    JirinPanthosa
    I would agree they established a cool character but haven't utilized him effectively yet. It's so jarring on the mood of the show when people suddenly get decapitated.

    And it makes no sense to fight with a sword in this setting, even if it looks cool. And they solved it by making him Batman-good at fighting.
     
  17. Rainard Fox

    Rainard Fox Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2019
    Location:
    Federation
    Thank you. Done :)