Spoilers Episode 7 "Nepenthe"

[eschaton]

One little niggle I still have regarding this episode: Why do Narek and Narissa still care so much about tracking down Soji?

I mean, we know that the reason they were keeping Soji alive rather than offing her immediately is to find her homeworld and "the nest." They have done that now. It seems the top priority is to get there ASAP. Killing her is more of a "mop up" operation. They can take their time with it.

 

[Racefuel]

The 'telepathic guiding' thing is from Discovery. I think the depiction of the Vulcan culture is a bit inconsistent, but I really wouldn't interpret it as a religion in traditional sense. Vulcans are telepathic, they literally have 'magic powers.' This may seem mystical and weird to humans, but to them it probably isn't. It is like how to a species without hearing us humans being able to communicate via speech would seem magical, and our fascination with music would seem like incomprehensible mysticism.. Vulcan monks and priests are just people who are mastering the practice and science related to their telepathic abilities. But this is the part that I referred to in my last posts. Things get a bit muddy in a setting where 'gods' and 'magic powers' demonstrably exist and can be scientifically studied.

So you would perhaps suggest that on Vulcan..priest is more synonymous with philosopher?

 

[ITDUDE]

One little niggle I still have regarding this episode: Why do Narek and Narissa still care so much about tracking down Soji?

I mean, we know that the reason they were keeping Soji alive rather than offing her immediately is to find her homeworld and "the nest." They have done that now. It seems the top priority is to get there ASAP. Killing her is more of a "mop up" operation. They can take their time with it.

Since she knows about their plans and where they intend to go, killing her would prevent her for asking for help. If the planet is in Federation space, it could be problematic for them to attack it if it's defended by couple dozen starships who responded to her request for help.

 

[cooleddie74]

But it is not like they have though polices and anyone can believe what they want.

Why not? Today you can believe any religion you so desire so long as it doesn't violate the law and involve the deliberate harming of human beings, and even that isn't a hard and fast rule since the representatives of organized religion and its fanatical followers hurt plenty of people throughout the world. Maybe you mangled your post and you meant that people can, in fact, believe what they want in which case I retract this but if you didn't then all I can say is that free and open societies that value diversity of culture and opinion tolerate religion no matter how ludicrous.

One can believe that a head of lettuce talks to them and commands them to speak of the Great Produce War that's about to be unleashed on mankind but so long as that person doesn't commit acts of violence or desecrate public or somebody else's private property to do so then there's nothing we can do but look on and laugh.

 

[Kor]

Riker doesn't remember that though. That's why him naming his son Thad, in reference to an episode he doesn't remember, is jarring. Unless Janeway told Riker about it when she got back.

Riker immediately recognized Thaddius Riker in the photo, so it was part of knowledge that he already had in his normal life outside of the Q experience. And his joyous reaction to the photo seemed to indicate a special regard for that particular ancestor of his.

I realize that there have been relatively good records for centuries longer in the Trekverse. Nonetheless, relatively few of us can trace back our own ancestors 500+ years. My own efforts to figure out my family tree basically peter out about 200 years or so before my birth.

About 200 years ago (from today's perspective) seems to be about the time when records became more consistent and reliable for a lot of families (at least in the Western world). Unless there's some huge loss of information between now and the 24th century (such as during WWIII or the Eugenics Wars?), then Riker should have no trouble at all tracing his family back to that period as well, since records continue to become more detailed and reliable, not less, and so much has been digitized. I have photos, vital records and documented lines of descent from ancestors in the 1860s, and I would expected that my descendants three hundred years from now would have the same stuff available to them.

Kor

 

[Noname Given]

One little niggle I still have regarding this episode: Why do Narek and Narissa still care so much about tracking down Soji?

I mean, we know that the reason they were keeping Soji alive rather than offing her immediately is to find her homeworld and "the nest." They have done that now. It seems the top priority is to get there ASAP. Killing her is more of a "mop up" operation. They can take their time with it.

They originally planned to kill her. That failed and the Zaht Vash are just wanting to ensure Soji doesn't have a chance to warn her brethren or perhaps activate some type of defense. If Soji had been eliminated, this would all be moot and the ZV could take their time; but Sji surviving and escaping put a big wrench in the Romulans ultimate plan.

 

[Longinus]

Maybe you mangled your post and you meant that people can, in fact, believe what they want

Yes.

 

[Longinus]

So you would perhaps suggest that on Vulcan..priest is more synonymous with philosopher?

Perhaps a bit but not quite. They are simply people who are dedicated to mastering a skills that we humans have no analogues for because we're not telepathic.

 

[Gonzo]

They originally planned to kill her. That failed and the Zaht Vash are just wanting to ensure Soji doesn't have a chance to warn her brethren or perhaps activate some type of defense. If Soji had been eliminated, this would all be moot and the ZV could take their time; but Sji surviving and escaping put a big wrench in the Romulans ultimate plan.

If they hadn't been so bloody stupid in the first place neither Dahj nor Soji would have activated.

I thought it odd from the start, hiding in the shadows so successfully for such a long time only to be given away now.

It made me wonder if Rissa was a double agent as she is the cause of all this, why are the Zhat Vash acting so rashly all of a sudden, what has changed, it cant be that they found out about the twins as it was indicated in the first episode that they had been watching Dahj for a while.

Why the rush all of a sudden.

 

[eschaton]

Riker immediately recognized Thaddius Riker in the photo, so it was part of knowledge that he already had in his normal life outside of the Q experience. And his joyous reaction to the photo seemed to indicate a special regard for that particular ancestor of his.



About 200 years ago (from today's perspective) seems to be about the time when records became more consistent and reliable for a lot of families (at least in the Western world). Unless there's some huge loss of information between now and the 24th century (such as during WWIII or the Eugenics Wars?), then Riker should have no trouble at all tracing his family back to that period as well, since records continue to become more detailed and reliable, not less, and so much has been digitized. I have photos, vital records and documented lines of descent from ancestors in the 1860s, and I would expected that my descendants three hundred years from now would have the same stuff available to them.

Kor

One issue with this though is every generation, your number of ancestors doubles. Figuring an average generation time of 29 years (which is what geneticists use) five generations back is about 145 years ago, which would be some time in the 19th century for most of us. We have 32 ancestors then. But go back 400 years and you have 16,384. No human is going to put that family tree together.

Of course, Thaddeus Riker was apparently Will's direct male-line ancestor. If you only care about one line it's probably easier to track.

 

[Skipper]

Couldn't help but think of this

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You know, these are quite good FXs!

 

[Noname Given]

If they hadn't been so bloody stupid in the first place neither Dahj nor Soji would have activated.

I thought it odd from the start, hiding in the shadows so successfully for such a long time only to be given away now.

It made me wonder if Rissa was a double agent as she is the cause of all this, why are the Zhat Vash acting so rashly all of a sudden, what has changed, it cant be that they found out about the twins as it was indicated in the first episode that they had been watching Dahj for a while.

Why the rush all of a sudden.

It goes back to an old STAR WARS observation:

"Hey - Why DIDN'T the Imperials just shoot the Lifepod with C-3P0 and R2D2 regardless of the no lifeforms' reading?"

"Because then - STAR WARS would have been a VERY SHORT film; and not have made all that money..."


Same for Star Trek II:TWoK :

"Hey, how is it a Federation Starships sensors can't tell Ceti Alpha VI blew up (probably leaving a new ring of asteroids); or that Ceti Alpha V shifted orbit?"

"Because then, Chekov and Captain Terell would never have beamed down to get the mind slugs implanted and STII would have again been very short and boring..."

AlanC9 said: ↑
Anyone got a link to that?

Even if religion just goes away, I'd figure that Jews would still exist as a sort of ethnicity. I know plenty of non-religious Jews.

Couldn't help but think of this

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^^^
Wait, what's Ds9 got to do with all this?

 

[Tomalak]

Well I bloody loved that episode. Bits of it were pretty indulgent for long-term fans, but it worked beautifully.

I was an absolute mess when Deanna and Will turned up. Both Frakes and especially Sirtis eased back into their old characters and I think this was Patrick Stewart's finest performance to date in this series. He really came alive in that scene around the dinner table, with Riker once again at his right and and Troi to his left. Quite thrilling to watch for this fan.

But it had a serious point. Taking stock, reminding us what this is all about and concentrating on the emotional rollercoaster that Soji has been through.

We got confirmation that Agnes got nobbled by Oh. Presumably she passed on the "dark secret" which turned her into a murderer. Not sure I fully buy this yet.

The only bit I didn't like was what felt like the unnecessary offing of Hugh. Can Elnor just get a phaser already?

 

[Kor]

Sure, Vulcans have religion. They travel to honor their gods at their family shrines. And the monks at P'Jem spoke of "sacred " relics and artefacts.

...
Of course, Thaddeus Riker was apparently Will's direct male-line ancestor. If you only care about one line it's probably easier to track.

A lot of people place a particular importance on the direct male line over all the other lines that they equally descended from. Apparently that's still part of human culture in the 24th century.

Kor

 

[DarthPipes]

If there was going to be a family member who had died, I thought there would be a mention of it being Lwaxana. I wonder whether she is alive at this point. Considering her devastating losing her daughter was, I can only imagine what her reaction would be to losing her grandson.

 

[Captain Shaw]

Really pissed off about Hugh dying and I guess the federation letting a child die just goes to show the TNG federation is well and truly dead.

 

[fireproof78]

I love how two incidents indicate that the Federation is dead...?

 

[JD]

Man, this was a great episode, it was really fun seeing Will and Deanna again, and Kestra was pretty good. The relationship between Kestra and Soji was a lot of fun.
It was nice to finally find out exactly what happened between Oh and Jurati. I noticed that the same ring of people that was included in what Jurati saw during the mind meld was also in the preview for next week's episode. I'm curious what exactly that means.
I'm really disappointed they killed Hugh, I was liking what they were doing with him here.

 

[ITDUDE]

I love how two incidents indicate that the Federation is dead...?

For some, they don't need any incidents to claim that.

 

[Kor]

So... I assumed that Oh's mind-meld vision was showing something that happened in Vulcan or Romulus's ancient past, not a preview of the future, since this Zhat Vash thing is a cabal going back to the hoary mists of ancient history.

Prove me wrong!

Kor