Spoilers The Timeless Children grade and discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
- Start date
To be fair, the Time Lords were also well aware of all three Time Wars (Alan Moore's Black Sun War, Lawrence Miles' War in Heaven and Russell T Davies' Last Great...) and still got their asses handed to them every single time. And saw Gallifrey destroyed in two out of the three. Shit, multiple Gallifreys in Miles' Time War. They're not actually that great at Time Lording.
Sorry for the double post. Nine was going through some serious post-genocide PTSD, but both Ten and Eleven (although it still weighed heavily on their minds) were more and more able to overcome it with each passing century and incarnation. Had Day of the Doctor not soft-retconned Gallifrey's fate, I'm sure that trend would have continued with Doctors 12+.
I wrote an article about the timeless child after the previous series. I think I covered most of the bases pretty well.
https://teamduggan.home.blog/2019/06/14/the-timeless-child/
https://teamduggan.home.blog/2019/06/14/the-timeless-child/
2005: Brings back Gallifreyand wipe it out in the Time War
November 2013: Let's bring back Gallifrey and stick it in a bubble universe.
December 2015: Bring it back properly
January 2020: Let's bring it back and destroy it again.
March 2020: Let's destroy even more!
I guess you saved all those children in Day of the Doctor for no good reason.
November 2013: Let's bring back Gallifrey and stick it in a bubble universe.
December 2015: Bring it back properly
January 2020: Let's bring it back and destroy it again.
March 2020: Let's destroy even more!
I guess you saved all those children in Day of the Doctor for no good reason.
Okay, so my memory about Shada was off (memory is a fickle beast) but the principle is still the same (even if I could've sworn it was a lot closer in design).
Maybe, maybe not Shada:
Animated Shada:
Shada:
Maybe, maybe not Shada:
Animated Shada:
Shada:
That's a great write up. My only regret with this retcon is that the 7th & 8th Doctor novels, 5th/7th novel Cold Fusion, ??? novel The Infinity Doctors, 10th novel The Eyeless and the Faction Paradox novels and audios are all now apparently in a different continuity from the TV show/Big Finish/Doctor Who Magazine comic strip continuity.
But then again, it kinda felt like that most times anyway. Plus having that entire saga exist in ANOTHER universe on ANOTHER Gallifrey based around ANOTHER Doctor is the most Lawrence Miles thing to possibly go down, so it's completely on brand with that mythos.
Time Lords don't grow their second heart until after their first regeneration. The real question is "Why the fuck did Hartnell Doc only have one?!".
Last edited:
Okay, so my memory about Shada was off (memory is a fickle beast) but the principle is still the same (even if I could've sworn it was a lot closer in design).
Maybe, maybe not Shada:
Animated Shada:
Shada:
The first picture's after the renovation. Gonna have to tear that headcanon out of my cold, dead hands.
Tecteun found the Timeless Child seemingly abandoned. She never found out (at least according to the Matrix as explained by The Master) where the Child came from or why she was alone. She could've been outcast.
Works for me!
Oh, right, I forgot to dig up the Big Finish one. 
I gave that an 8, and found it mostly entertaining. The one thing that didn't jibe with me so much was why the Master killed everyone on Gallifrey in the first place. Yes they had been lied to all their lives, but it affected the Doctor the most. Oh well.
I did like that it added more mystique to the Doctor.
I did like that it added more mystique to the Doctor.
That was ok, didn't shake things up nearly as much as it was supposed to, and thankfully Chibnall resisted the urge to go into sprawling explanations so the mystery behind the Doctor remains. Never been a huge fan of teh Doctor being super special and all that, but whatever.
The Master was good, and loved the idea of Timelord Cybermen! Comapnions got stuff to do but that whole speech Graham gave Yaz, has he been hanging around with a different Yaz?
After some major improvements this series it was sad that the Doctor went back to being a bystander for much of this again, even down to random guy saving her from having to act in the end--I mean glad he did and all that, but still.
Nice to see the Ruth Doc again.
Oh and if the timless child has no regeneration limit, does this mean Smith regenerating into Capaldi was always going to happen and the Timelords faked giving him a new cycle?
The Master was good, and loved the idea of Timelord Cybermen! Comapnions got stuff to do but that whole speech Graham gave Yaz, has he been hanging around with a different Yaz?
After some major improvements this series it was sad that the Doctor went back to being a bystander for much of this again, even down to random guy saving her from having to act in the end--I mean glad he did and all that, but still.
Nice to see the Ruth Doc again.
Oh and if the timless child has no regeneration limit, does this mean Smith regenerating into Capaldi was always going to happen and the Timelords faked giving him a new cycle?
That's immediately what I thought.
Not to quote the entire post, but I basically agree with everything you said. The Master cared far, far less the Doctor ever did for the Time Lords. Hell, back when the Doctor had acutally destroyed Gallifrey himself, he was grief-stricken and guilt-ridden. Every incarnation of the Master was never much into Time Lords, especially as the Simm Master, who actually had a beef with them. Add to that, the awful, campy, cartoonish turn by Dhawan, who suprisingly usurped Simm as the worst Master ever (you can thank Moffat for redeeming Simm, really).
Basically, what I want to understand is at what point did the Timeless Child come to be The Doctor. As in, the kid in the barn in the flashback of Listen, who was unsure of himself and hid in his family's barn. Cause we know he grew up into William Hartnell, and we know this because Clara physically visited the First Doctor as a kid. Its confusing as fuck.
As for the Cybermen story itself - what the actual fuck? I mean, once again, as with the rest of the season, all three companions are useless and are there just as filler between whatever the Doctor does. Heck, I actually thought they were setting up Graham's sacrifice at the end, when Gallifrey blew up (ahem, YET AGAIN!). I thought we were really going to be treated with some decent Cyber War action but this is more than underwhelming. Also, if the last humans retreated on Earth to the present day... what happens in the future? Wasn't there supposed to be a future for humanity at the end of the Cyber Wars?
And again, there was a decent opportunity for one of the Doctor's mates to sacrifice one of themselves to save all reality (a fate Adric would be jealous of), and appropriately so, IMO, since none of them, not one, had a decent character arc to speak of (indeed, Graham's illness was just window dressing).
Anyway, about the lack of continuity that someone remarked: I was surprised too, but mainly because both RTD and Moffat had, both between themselves and because they employed even more knowledgeable people about that stuff, had a good handle on the show's continuity. Never mind the glaring absence of mention for Rassilon AND Omega, the sheer volume of the show refutes claims that this episode makes. Coupled that with the aforementioned impossibility that the Master would actually be concerned about this, and I basically come out of this, like this:
Disappointed. I mean, part of the reason I never liked the Cartmel Masterplan was because the idea of making the Doctor the template of the Time Lords was always a bad one. But at least that concept included Rassilon and Omega in some form. This basically ignores them.
PS: The Master mentions he hates how the Doctor was the template for their entire race... but, Chibnall, boobalah, BABY, he was also the template of the Cybermen! As in, Spare Parts, certainly. Take that, Master!
Well, they were surprisingly unsurprised by Attack Eyebrows showing up to help save Gallifrey in Day of the Doctor.
The more I think about it, the less sense it makes to me. How COULD the Master destroy 2,67 billion+ people? At least it took all the Daleks to do so at the end of the Time War. Also, if the Master wanted a race for himself... why not just utilize Rassilon's plan from The End of Time and become sentient beings of gas (or something, details are sketchy)? Seems far easier to utilize and without having to appeal to the frickin' Cybermen!
Also, why did all these Doctor exist? Were they all agents of Time or something? This is frustratingly irritating.
Also, why did all these Doctor exist? Were they all agents of Time or something? This is frustratingly irritating.
It's called shit writing.
When all the Doctors came back to save Galifrey at the end of the Time War where was the other go knows how many Doctors? Surley a Time War affects all TIME so the others ones bouncing around should of been affected by such an event.
Why did Clara not see them when she went into the scar tissue? I mean the whole Trenzalore arc is screwed by this story.
So can we actually canonize Curse of Final Death now? It was written by Stephen Moffat. That would make Joanna Lumley the first female Doctor officially, although she has been in my head canon for many years.
I think this is brilliant, it gives the Doctor a lot of mystery back, not even a Gallifreyan, an orphan from another dimension or universe, who doesn't even know herself, or himself.
As for Matt Smith not regenerating, well he hadn't died yet. He believed he wasn't going to regenerate, and was holding out for as long as he could. If he had died, he would have regenerated into Capaldi regardless, but the Time Lords triggered it and used him to defeat the Daleks.
When the TARDIS was Idris, she commented on her having been a museum piece when they met. She also said she never had any intention of giving him back. She made sure Clara got the discombobulated Doctor back to the right TARDIS. She always has made sure, and she exists across all of space and time simultaneously, and knows how to keep an eye on the Doctor, how to keep him out of his own way, and only bump into his other selves when it's absolutely necessary. If the Time Lords were dragging her thief off every 13 regenerations and making him forget himself, she'd be there at the right place and the right time to whisk him or her back off to the good life.
Jodie's Doctor is much more conversant with the TARDIS. This change has opened up a possibility to build on that relationship. The TARDIS has always known that the Doctor was the Timeless Child, after all. We now don't know how the Doctor and the TARDIS first first met.
This episode also means that regeneration is the result of a medical breakthrough, and anyone can be granted regenerations. The Doctor has an adopted mother out there who made the breakthrough, and never had a 13 life restriction. She could be out there, somewhere.
And yes, all of it can be hand waved away with a thing. Anything can, that's the point, it's a story, enjoy it.
Oh, and edited to add... Irish Doctor!
Also, there's a spare TARDIS out there, somewhere, on Earth, hiding in plain sight. It looks like a tree, but there's a keyhole in it. Nobody's coming back for it, it's just there. Waiting.
I think this is brilliant, it gives the Doctor a lot of mystery back, not even a Gallifreyan, an orphan from another dimension or universe, who doesn't even know herself, or himself.
As for Matt Smith not regenerating, well he hadn't died yet. He believed he wasn't going to regenerate, and was holding out for as long as he could. If he had died, he would have regenerated into Capaldi regardless, but the Time Lords triggered it and used him to defeat the Daleks.
When the TARDIS was Idris, she commented on her having been a museum piece when they met. She also said she never had any intention of giving him back. She made sure Clara got the discombobulated Doctor back to the right TARDIS. She always has made sure, and she exists across all of space and time simultaneously, and knows how to keep an eye on the Doctor, how to keep him out of his own way, and only bump into his other selves when it's absolutely necessary. If the Time Lords were dragging her thief off every 13 regenerations and making him forget himself, she'd be there at the right place and the right time to whisk him or her back off to the good life.
Jodie's Doctor is much more conversant with the TARDIS. This change has opened up a possibility to build on that relationship. The TARDIS has always known that the Doctor was the Timeless Child, after all. We now don't know how the Doctor and the TARDIS first first met.
This episode also means that regeneration is the result of a medical breakthrough, and anyone can be granted regenerations. The Doctor has an adopted mother out there who made the breakthrough, and never had a 13 life restriction. She could be out there, somewhere.
And yes, all of it can be hand waved away with a thing. Anything can, that's the point, it's a story, enjoy it.
Oh, and edited to add... Irish Doctor!
Also, there's a spare TARDIS out there, somewhere, on Earth, hiding in plain sight. It looks like a tree, but there's a keyhole in it. Nobody's coming back for it, it's just there. Waiting.
Last edited:
Similar threads
