Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x02 - "Maps and Legends"

[Doc Mugatu]

Vulcans being evil, manipulative or just plain condescending pricks isn't really just an Enterprise/nuTrek thing... didn't DS9 have a literal Vulcan serial killer in one episode? ...

Serial killing would definitely be an outlier and is an abnormal state with a variety of potential causes. Again, no one is saying Vulcans are perfect. Even Spock was seen as "dick-ish" by Dr. McCoy from time to time. Again condescension is way removed and in no way equivalent to being evil and manipulative.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I think you're taking the conversation a bit more seriously than the rest of us.

Seriously? ... Your playing that card in a Star Trek forum!

 

[Gonzo]

i second that - not funny at all

I watched the second episode to give the show another chance.

Still not funny at all.

In fact its almost like they went out of their way to make it unfunny, either that or a Vulcan wrote it.

 

[oberth]

I watched the second episode to give the show another chance.

Still not funny at all.

In fact its almost like they went out of their way to make it unfunny, either that or a Vulcan wrote it.

no second chance from me - it's just horrible

 

[AlanC9]

Arranged marriages are understandable. Maybe western civs don't care for it. May even be out-of-date in our day, however, it was an exotic element to flesh out Spock's Vulcan culture. To the degree that Vulcan women are "controlled" we actually don't know. T'Pring did have a voice and she exercised it. Didn't strike me that T'Pau was "controlled." On top of that it was depicted as something they are not necessarily proud of nor in control of themselves. A left over from their pre-logic days.

My take on the practice -- which admittedly isn't evidence-based -- is that its function is to take romantic love off the table. Everyone grows up knowing that these feelings don't have anything to do with what's going to happen in their lives. In theory, anyway; T'Pring found herself a loophole.

Simply more false equivalencies. Stoicism is part of Vulcan nature doesn't automatically equate to them be of dubious character, nor does being a "suspect" in a murder. For the record, Sarek was innocent and no prior acts of murder ever presented. Spock merely acknowledged it was possible as Sarek possessed the ability. He never said Sarek had the nature to do such a thing.

Well, he had the nature to do such a thing if his reasons for doing so were good enough. But there wasn't any sensible motive for Sarek to murder the Tellarite ambassadorr.

 

[AlanC9]

The Admiral did at least follow up on what Picard told her, she didn't totally dismiss what he had to say out of hand. I can see her point that he had a cheek asking for a ship after spending years bad mouthing Starfleet and doing it on the news.

I'm not sure if this is the intended takeaway from the scene, but I couldn't help thinking that Picard has lost a step. He seems to just assume that his inherent righteousness would win the day, rather than actually thinking about how his words and deeds will be responded to by the other party to the negotiation. Compare this to, say, his interactions with Admiral Nechayev.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

… T'Pring found herself a loophole.

Alan, see it as you wish. You and I both framed our comments as opinion - something which all are entitled. My only nitpick … was not, by definition, a "loophole." A "loophole" is an ambiguity or inadequacy in a law or set of rules. It is a dangerous misuse of the word.

 

[BillJ]

You are committing the fallacy of false equivalents. Pre-arranged marriages does not equate to them being duplicitous evil schemers.

Arranged marriages are understandable. Maybe western civs don't care for it. May even be out-of-date in our day, however, it was an exotic element to flesh out Spock's Vulcan culture. To the degree that Vulcan women are "controlled" we actually don't know. T'Pring did have a voice and she exercised it. Didn't strike me that T'Pau was "controlled." On top of that it was depicted as something they are not necessarily proud of nor in control of themselves. A left over from their pre-logic days.

Your society is fucked up if the only way a woman can walk away from a marriage is with someone dying.

 

[oberth]

Your society is fucked up if the only way a woman can walk away from a marriage is with someone dying.

i think you are rather lenient with them

 

[jaime]

Your society is fucked up if the only way a woman can walk away from a marriage is with someone dying.

It was also apparently the only way a man could.

 

[AlanC9]

Streaming services count two things: 1) New subscribers and 2) cancellations. CBS is afraid folks would just sign up and binge watch and then drop it. Make them wait and, if nothing else, hope they forget they are having the monthly fee taken from their account. Be surprised at how many do.

Right. Note that they put out a code for extending the trial period to a full month. If you used the code on the last day available, an additional paid month will take you to the Picard season finale, which is what I'm doing. Wanna bet I forget to cancel at the end of March?

 

[BillJ]

It was also apparently the only way a man could.

Do we have anything on screen that indicates that? I'm not as familiar with the stuff outside of TOS/TNG.

 

[AlanC9]

Alan, see it as you wish. You and I both framed our comments as opinion - something which all are entitled. My only nitpick … was not, by definition, a "loophole." A "loophole" is an ambiguity or inadequacy in a law or set of rules. It is a dangerous misuse of the word.

But if the purpose of the system really is to take romantic love off the table, then T'Pring's ability to arrange a challenge simply because she wanted Stonn is an inadequacy in the rules, since she's obeying the system but violating the intent of the system.

Hey, how the hell did Sarek end up marrying Amanda? It obviously wasn't arranged.

 

[BillJ]

Hey, how the hell did Sarek end up marrying Amanda? It obviously wasn't arranged.

First wife died at some point? I believe that is the explanation in Star Trek V.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Your society is fucked up if the only way a woman can walk away from a marriage is with someone dying.

By Earth standards, maybe … but don't be a Terran Supremist, man!

Again, not even the Vulcans were proud of this aspect of their culture. It was deeply rooted in their biology … Spock could have potentially died without the combat. We also don't know if circumstance had been different and Spock had rejected T'Pau how would that have played? What if Spock still had it bad for Leila Kalomi and if that overrode his connection to T'Pau as presumably her connection to Stonn did towards Spock?

 

[Doc Mugatu]

But if the purpose of the system really is to take romantic love off the table, then T'Pring's ability to arrange a challenge simply because she wanted Stonn is an inadequacy in the rules, since she's obeying the system but violating the intent of the system.

You are wrong. The rules explicitly said she could challenge. They had a contingency setup for just that possibility.

Hey, how the hell did Sarek end up marrying Amanda? It obviously wasn't arranged.

Amanda wasn't his first marriage.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

First wife died at some point? I believe that is the explanation in Star Trek V.

Now if they want to do a movie where Angela Lansbury gets thawed out as Jessica Fletcher and investigates Sarek's first wifes death, well, I'd watch it as well as possibly revising my estimation of him!

 

[jaime]

Do we have anything on screen that indicates that? I'm not as familiar with the stuff outside of TOS/TNG.

Spock, all pony farred as he was, didn’t say no...and I am sure the Vulcans would have laid on a replacement bride as curative.

 

[BillJ]

Spock, all pony farred as he was, didn’t say no...and I am sure the Vulcans would have laid on a replacement bride as curative.

So we'll change it to "someone dying". Not sure that is any better...

 

[Doc Mugatu]

… pony farred ...

… that's good!