Spoilers Variety Article on Patrick Stewart's Return

[Cake]

I guess you never watched TOS.

While Starfleet officers strove to be better the average everyday human didn't. And even Starfleet officers broke on occasion.

I have seen TOS. It is my favorite Star Trek series. And even in TOS is was clear that the goal was to portray humans as better than they were in the 60s or even today in a lot of ways (though they could really have done more when it comes to equality between genders). After all it was one peaceful united Earth with colonies and they were in a union with other alien races. The look to the future of humans was clearly a hopeful one. Individual assholes and idiots still existed of course, but human as a whole have learned from a lot of mistakes of the past.

It wasn't a cynical look which feels like PIC will be when they use the Federation to criticize US and UK politics the makers of the series don't like. Their stated goal is not to look at the best aspects of the USA and UK and extrapolate that to the future, no they want to take the things they like the least about those countries at the moment, give those aspects to the Federation and Starfleet, so they can tell a hero vs. bad state/society storyline.

 

[BillJ]

It wasn't a cynical look which feels like PIC will be when they use the Federation to criticize US and UK politics the makers of the series don't like. Their stated goal is not to look at the best aspects of the USA and UK and extrapolate that to the future, no they want to take the things they like the least about those countries at the moment, give those aspects to the Federation and Starfleet, so they can tell a hero vs. bad state/society storyline.

Ah, now your posts make sense.

 

[Campe]

I'll admit I'm not the biggest fan of the so-called "Roddenberry ideal." I believe far more in the ideal of trying to do better, not all of us absolutely having it right. However, that's not where the TNG era left us. The idea that this ideal can never be tested is not all that interesting, at least for me. The concept that the Federation/Starfleet might have lost their way and having our hero, someone we followed for seven years and four movies who truly lived into that ideal is one that is actually pretty fascinating.

 

[BillJ]

The idea that this ideal can never be tested is not all that interesting, at least for me. The concept that the Federation/Starfleet might have lost their way and having our hero, someone we followed for seven years and four movies who truly lived into that ideal is one that is actually pretty fascinating.

Better than bolting a never heard of before foster sister onto Spock's backstory.

 

[Campe]

Better than bolting a never heard of before foster sister onto Spock's backstory.

Touche.

 

[Cake]

Ah, now your posts make sense.

As I didn't really say anything else than before which can be shorten to wanting the portrayal of a better future in Star Trek, please feel free to extrapolate instead of posting a laughing smiling which feels like you are personally insulting me now.

 

[eschaton]

I'm a little let down - though not surprised - that Stewart lets it drop in the video when they ask about Chain of Command that there are no Cardassians whatsoever in the first season.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

I'm a little let down - though not surprised - that Stewart lets it drop in the video when they ask about Chain of Command that there are no Cardassians whatsoever in the first season.

Doesn't mean there won't be any in a potential second season tho. (There's - unfortunately - lots of past trauma to explore when it comes to Jean-Luc as a character.)

 

[fireproof78]

It wasn't a cynical look which feels like PIC will be when they use the Federation to criticize US and UK politics the makers of the series don't like. Their stated goal is not to look at the best aspects of the USA and UK and extrapolate that to the future, no they want to take the things they like the least about those countries at the moment, give those aspects to the Federation and Starfleet, so they can tell a hero vs. bad state/society storyline.

Except when they did use Star Trek to criticize American politics.

 

[Tuskin38]

Star Trek criticized America all the time.

 

[BillJ]

As I didn't really say anything else than before which can be shorten to wanting the portrayal of a better future in Star Trek, please feel free to extrapolate instead of posting a laughing smiling which feels like you are personally insulting me now.

You're offended by the politics of it. People try to couch their arguments in "well, Star Trek promoted a better future!!!", but it becomes clear when someone is insulted by the politics of the story. Because Star Trek has always had politics attached to it...

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[BillJ]

Except when they did use Star Trek to criticize American politics.

We also shouldn't forget "The High Ground", where Trek put a very different face on terrorism. Laying the ground work for DS9's Major Kira.

 

[Cake]

You man other then Gene Roddenberry?
USS means "United Space Ship" and that "Enterprise is a member of the Starship Class".[
And with the eradication of political earth boarders, hunger, money, etc, it never once represented the US alone, (then or at a later time), but an idealized as yet achieved global and the galaxy wide future.
Not sure how people(supposed fans) can get that so wrong?

It never felt to me that the Federation was real life USA either. The USA was just so much worse during all of its history than the Federation and we had a bunch of non American characters, too. But obviously it is a US series and the series reflects it, many American characters and English names. And the characters are not saying how great communism, monarchy, Islam, Mao, etc. is. But yes the Enterprise was a ship representing the whole Federation and not just the USA part of Earth. The basis was the dream of peaceful united mankind.

The Federation was the USA (or just NATO) and the Klimgons were the Soviet Union. In allegory of course. It’s very obvious when watching Undiscovered Country.

The show also tried to push some American ideals (Remember when Kirk read the American constitution?)

It is a US series of course, so if you look at it allegorical this might be true. But for example that USA vs. Soviet Union thing doesn't work so well anymore in canon when you consider that Russia is part of the Federation and the Klingons were therefore the enemies of Russia, too.

When it comes to Kirk being excited to see the American constitution, you can explain it in canon as him being from Iowa and being proud of one of his ancestors's achievements.

I mean there are always two ways to look at a series. One is you blend out all the real world stuff and the other is the meta level. So for example that Klingons look different all the time requires some creativy to explain in canon, on the meta level it is just producers deciding to use different make up on their actors. So blending out real world stuff the Federation was never the USA and the Klingons were never the Soviet Union. It was a United Federation of Planets which Earth is part of vs. an alien race with their own empire. On the meta level it might have been a very idealized version of the USA/NATO vs the Soviet Union though.

 

[fireproof78]

We also shouldn't forget "The High Ground", where Trek put a very different face on terrorism. Laying the ground work for DS9's Major Kira.

Indeed. And, many times, Trek was heavy handed it in its critiques. Certainly I do not agree with all the politics of Star Trek over the years, especially the tendency to look down upon 20th century humans. \

But, the real world politics are there, whether one likes them or not...

 

[Ovation]

Kirk’s first speech to the Organians is a perfect illustration of the Federation as allegory for Kennedy-era political proselytizing (you can practically envision the Peace Corps doctrine in the writing room). It’s hardly the only example of “Federation as USA” allegory but it’s among the most evident.

 

[Cake]

Except when they did use Star Trek to criticize American politics.

Star Trek criticized America all the time.

You're offended by the politics of it. People try to couch their arguments in "well, Star Trek promoted a better future!!!", but it becomes clear when someone is insulted by the politics of the story. Because Star Trek has always had politics attached to it...

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I already addressed this on the first page of this thread as an answer to one of Tuskin38 old posts. So quoting myself as seemingly no one is reading the whole thread or everyone is forgetful:

They never turned the Federation into current day USA and UK though. The Federation was always clearly better than any real world country, especially the humans living in it were better. They used mainly aliens when it comes to criticizing something humans in the real world do. But now it is all about how humans as a whole will never change and how they will be in the future just like they are in the present.

They can go ahead and criticize politics, especially USA and UK politics. I don't really care about both countries. But there is a big difference between making an alien race with black and white faces fighting each other depending on what side of the face is black or white respectively and making the Federation declare that black humans are not allowed to serve in Starfleet anymore. Both would criticize racism, but the big difference is that you won't turn future humans as a whole into assholes if you go the alien and very meta level route. Why is it so hard to understand the difference for some people? You can tell so many stories, including some which address current problems, without turning future mankind into present day mankind with all its problems and hang-ups.

Going the "dark and gritty" route with turning future humans as a whole worse than they were in past incarnations of the franchise, is just lazy and boring by now. So many reboots and spin-offs already went the dark and gritty route before instead staying true to the spirit of earlier incarnations of their franchise. Not to mention countless other series and movies going the dark and gritty route. There is really no lack of series and movies portraying the darker sides of humans.

Star Trek in the past was one of the rare exceptions. There are so few series out there who dare to dream, which really imagine a better future. Now Star Trek is just like everything else on TV. Nothing special about it anymore.

 

[BillJ]

They can go ahead and criticize politics, especially USA and UK politics. I don't really care about both countries. But there is a big difference between making an alien race with black and white faces fighting each other depending on what side of the face is black or white respectively and making the Federation declare that black humans are not allowed to serve in Starfleet anymore. Both would criticize racism, but the big difference is that you won't turn future humans as a whole into assholes if you go the alien and very meta level route. Why is it so hard to understand the difference for some people? You can tell so many stories, including some which address current problems, without turning future mankind into present day mankind with all its problems and hang-ups.

Thing is, no one really knows, because no one has seen the show. We know Starfleet isn't receptive to Picard, but we don't know the reasoning behind it.

 

[Kelso]

Throughout Trek history, the Federation and Starfleet Command have been portrayed as a bunch of assholes as often as not.

For every noble Starfleet officer there is at least four jackass Ambassadors or Admirals s/he has to overcome.

 

[Cake]

Thing is, no one really knows, because no one has seen the show. We know Starfleet isn't receptive to Picard, but we don't know the reasoning behind it.

I think it is very, very unlikely that the Federation and Starfleet have a good reason for it though or to be precise a morally acceptable good reason for it considering the Variety article.

“In a way, the world of ‘Next Generation’ had been too perfect and too protected,” he says. “It was the Enterprise. It was a safe world of respect and communication and care and, sometimes, fun.” In “Picard,” the Federation — a union of planets bonded by shared democratic values — has taken an isolationist turn. The new show, Stewart says, “was me responding to the world of Brexit and Trump and feeling, ‘Why hasn’t the Federation changed? Why hasn’t Starfleet changed?’ Maybe they’re not as reliable and trustworthy as we all thought.”

Real-world parallels are not hard to identify. It is one week before the parliamentary election that will see British prime minister and Brexit hardliner Boris Johnson’s Conservatives win a staggering victory over their Labour rivals. And Stewart is not feeling optimistic about the near future.

“I’m not sure which one of us is in the most trouble,” he says of Britain and the United States. “I think it’s actually the U.K. I think we’re f—ed, completely f—ed.” He points to studies predicting decades-long economic damage inflicted by the country’s looming withdrawal from the European Union. Of the U.S., he says, “There is a time limit to your f—ed state, which is four years away.” He expresses hope that “the United States that has given us the Trump administration” can change, but adds, “He will likely get reelected.”

Patrick Stewart made is so clear here that they want to use the Federation as a stand in for current UK and USA and considering that he describes both as fucked states at the moment, I just don't think this bodes well for the portrayal of the Federation and Starfleet.

 

[BillJ]

Patrick Stewart made is so clear here that they want to use the Federation as a stand in for current UK and USA and considering that he describes both as fucked states at the moment, I just don't think this bodes well for the portrayal of the Federation and Starfleet.

We're two weeks away, so we'll all have to wait and see.