The end of Kurn (brainwashing)

[Discofan]

Would a doctor really perform this procedure on a patient? I have a hard time believing they would. Much less that Captain Sisko would sanction it at this point in the series, if ever.

Well, it seems that DS9 doctors do a lot of questionable things ethically speaking, like performing what can only be described as elective surgery in order to contribute to a deception that will decisively influence the elections in an alien government for example.

 

[Kor]

Would a doctor really perform this procedure on a patient? I have a hard time believing they would. Much less that Captain Sisko would sanction it at this point in the series, if ever.

Starfleet medical ethics may be different from civilian medical ethics. Maybe Worf pulled rank and ordered Bashir to do it.

Kor

 

[Discofan]

Starfleet medical ethics may be different from civilian medical ethics. Maybe Worf pulled rank and ordered Bashir to do it.

Kor

I don't think you can order a doctor to do unethical things no matter what rank you are.

 

[Nakita Akita]

Starfleet medical ethics may be different from civilian medical ethics. Maybe Worf pulled rank and ordered Bashir to do it.

Kor

Well, in the US Army ( Starfleet isn't military , yea, yea, whatever)
It would be very difficult for an officer to 'order' a doctor to perform a medical procedure.
I was lower enlisted, medical field, and there were orders that were not "lawful" which I could disobey from any rank. .
And I was a total peon worker bee.
Anyway Bashir was a pompous guy, so short of a death threat Worf couldn't order him to do that.
And Worf wouldn't give Bashir a death threat because that is not honorable

 

[Kor]

Well, we've seen other examples of medical stuff in Starfleet that wouldn't be acceptable in today's medical ethics. Picard had Pulaski scramble Sarjenka's memories. And Janeway OK'ed the EMH working with the Moset hologram to operate on B'Elanna, which B'Elanna herself had refused on conscientious and ethical grounds.

So this incident would just be par for the course for Starfleet.

Kor

 

[Prax]

Bashir has more ethical ethics than Pulaski. When Bashir sees a clone, the clone must live. When Pulaski sees a clone, and the clone was of her, and she didn't pre-approve, that clone must die.

 

[Discofan]

Bashir has more ethical ethics than Pulaski. When Bashir sees a clone, the clone must live. When Pulaski sees a clone, and the clone was of her, and she didn't pre-approve, that clone must die.

Yeah, the clone thing with Pulaski and Riker and the casual way they execute them is really crass and only excused by writer negligence.

 

[Discofan]

Well, we've seen other examples of medical stuff in Starfleet that wouldn't be acceptable in today's medical ethics. Picard had Pulaski scramble Sarjenka's memories. And Janeway OK'ed the EMH working with the Moset hologram to operate on B'Elanna, which B'Elanna herself had refused on conscientious and ethical grounds.

So this incident would just be par for the course for Starfleet.

Kor

The thing is that the way it is presented it really looks like the doctor had a choice when it came to the physical aspect of the "specialist" in "Nothing Human". That was really moronic of him to choose a Cardassian knowing that about half of the crew had spent years fighting them. It would be like putting an ss-uniform on a doctor on a ship full of Jew refugees right after WWII!!! So the cause of this episode's major problem is the doctor's stupidity.

 

[Prax]

The Maquis were like 1/5th of the crew, but yes, the doctor made some pretty bad decisions, or at least, some in poor taste.

 

[DonIago]

It would have been better if he was manipulative and concealed the fact that the information being used to cure Torres was originating from Cardassian experimentation?

That said, and I say this as a Jew...I obviously think it sucks what the Nazis did, but if they found the Cure for Cancer, I wouldn't insist on burying it solely because of the source, and I think it's terrible to think that accepting ill-gotten gains in this manner is equivalent to some sort of endorsement. It's called making the best of a horrible situation.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

It would have been better if he was manipulative and concealed the fact that the information being used to cure Torres was originating from Cardassian experimentation?

That said, and I say this as a Jew...I obviously think it sucks what the Nazis did, but if they found the Cure for Cancer, I wouldn't insist on burying it solely because of the source, and I think it's terrible to think that accepting ill-gotten gains in this manner is equivalent to some sort of endorsement. It's called making the best of a horrible situation.

In reality, almost all medical knowledge (at least from before a certain era) is ill-gotten gains in some form or other. Early students of human anatomy were disturbingly unconcerned with ethics.

But at the same time if B'Elanna didn't want the treatment, it ought to be her decision.

 

[Discofan]

If militant vegans knew how the medication was obtained throughout the ages, they wouldn't use anything, according to their principles at least. Every remedy, even the ones made out of herbs and "natural substances" were initially experimented on animals. Before the invention of chemistry, the only way to know if something was poisonous was to feed it to an animal and see what happens. Powerful people had people taste their food before them, and sometimes these died!!!

 

[Farscape One]

Regarding Riker and Pulaski killing their clones...

I agree with it. They were kidnapped and had a medical procedure done on them EXPRESSLY stating before they did not want to be cloned. Their bodies were violated. In their place, I would gave done exactly the same thing, especially since they weren't even finished.

 

[Tenacity]

What was done to Riker and Pulaski wasn't done by the clones, they were innocent of any wrong doing.

 

[Prax]

Coming Soon...

Another lively TNG debate in a 2nd DS9 thread

 

[Nakita Akita]

What was done to Riker and Pulaski wasn't done by the clones, they were innocent of any wrong doing.

Riker practically killed himself that was duplicated in the transporter accident!
So a partially formed clone shouldn't be a problem for him.
Pulasky was Pulasky, she's going to do whatever she wants to do and the more feathers she Ruffles doing it, all the better.

 

[Prax]

In another scene back on the ship, Riker says "There could be more. We might have to go a-clone huntin." Pulaski responds "I concur"

(the above quotes are paraphrased)

 

[DonIago]

Here's the real thinker though: if the clones had achieved consciousness and really were clones of Riker and Pulaski, would they have killed themselves?

 

[Prax]

 

[Nakita Akita]

Here's the real thinker though: if the clones had achieved consciousness and really were clones of Riker and Pulaski, would they have killed themselves?

Riker and Pulasky would have killed any and all clones.
Troi and Picard, never.
Geordie, he would have had to talk it over with Data first and then decide.