Animated Trek series coming to Nickelodeon

[Rhodan]

Oh, The Clone Wars and Rebels expanded the Star Wars universe in some very effective and important ways, though the jury's still out on Resistance. They've given us important new characters like Ahsoka Tano and Saw Gerrera, they've established Grand Admiral Thrawn as a canonical character, they've fleshed out Darth Maul and the Mandalorians and others, and they're the only place onscreen that Anakin Skywalker is actually a likeable and well-acted character.

And really, by this point, the animated shows constitute the vast majority of canonical Star Wars screen content by running time. I'm convinced there's a whole generation growing up now that sees Star Wars as an animated TV franchise with occasional live-action movies.

OK, this might be more that I don´t care about Star Wars worlbuilding in general. The discussion is hard since we still don´t know much about the cartoon in question.

 

[Christopher]

OK, this might be more that I don´t care about Star Wars worlbuilding in general.

It's not about worldbuilding per se, just about good and worthwhile stories. Some of the best story and character work in the franchise is in the animated shows (which have the room to go into more depth than a 6-hour trilogy), and I think it's a shame to dismiss that because of their format or medium.

The discussion is hard since we still don´t know much about the cartoon in question.

When we know little, it is generally best to say little.

 

[Rhodan]

It's not about worldbuilding per se, just about good and worthwhile stories. Some of the best story and character work in the franchise is in the animated shows (which have the room to go into more depth than a 6-hour trilogy), and I think it's a shame to dismiss that because of their format or medium.




When we know little, it is generally best to say little.

OK, I just consider good setting to be welcome spice in space opera. And I haven´t experienced it in audiovisual media for quite a while.

 

[The Overlord]

Apparently this show will not be like TAS at all:

https://www.latimes.com/entertainme...rek-franchise-expanding-2019040509-story.html

I will say, I think TAS had a few interesting story ideas, (like the episode that explored Spock's childhood on Vulcan for the first time and the one where Kirk, Spock and a bunch of other aliens teamed up to stop a galactic war), but the whole show was held down by its production value, bad animation and a tiny voice cast (I like the TOS cast, but only James Doohan was a really talented voice actor, everyone else could do their own voice and that's it, having Nichelle Nichols and Majel Barret voice every female guest star got old quick), which undermined any sort of stories they were trying to tell.

This new show will have a bigger budget so it will have better animation and a way bigger voice cast.

I only hope Nickelodeon will not mistreat this show, They have a habit of sending shows (like Harvey Beaks and Welcome to the Wayne), off to Nicktoons if they do not get Spongebob level ratings right away. I hope this show would do what Star Wars Clone Wars did for Star Wars.

 

[Qonundrum]

But even the "alien" characters are allegories for humanity. It wouldn't be Trek without its central aliens that let us explore facets of our humanity through the contrast or allegory, like Spock, Data, Odo, Seven, T'Pol, and Saru. So it's misguided to think that Trek's focus on humanity equates to some kind of racist "no alien leads allowed" dogma. That's profoundly and painfully missing the point.

Agreed!

Well, yes, we've been told all along that Lower Decks is an adult-oriented animated series. It's from the creator of Rick & Morty, which is a very adult and very crass comedy (which worries me, since I very much dislike that style of humor, though I expect they'll tone it down somewhat for Trek).

Same argument goes for "Family Guy" and "Orville" as made by the same fella, Seth MacFarlane. "Orville"'s largely tame, only a handful of scenes try to get to FG territory and even then they don't.

What I recall hearing, R&M has some decent writing and sci-fi topics at times that are well done. It might actually be good.

Your mother was stricter than the censors at the time, since by the '70s you could get away with saying "pregnant." Before then, though, things were different. When Lucille Ball got pregnant during I Love Lucy, it was a daring choice to write it into the show rather than try to hide it and pretend the stork delivered babies or whatever, but they still couldn't say the word, so they had to come up with euphemisms like "in the family way" and "expecting."

It was probably cheaper to just write it in instead of using camera angles and altered storylines. Desilu is the same company that green-lit another pilot, since they already threw millions into sets and other designs for "The Cage" and wanted to double down before dismantling it all.

It's bizarre and sad that society was ever so repressed that even the process of child development and birth was treated as obscene.

Lucille has been said to be a prude so it is interesting that she would write into the show - a show where they had 2 separate beds in the bedroom - her pregnancy. "Pregnancy" is also a more clinical word than an emotion-soothing euphemism such as "expecting" or "family way". But people do prefer emotional soothing, it's as ubiquitous as the reason for it.

I guess it's because it resulted from sex and involved lady parts, so talking about it meant acknowledging other things that were taboo. But it's still really, really dysfunctional.

Wait, sex doesn't involve man parts too so it's not a one-way street? And last I'd checked, most things involving only man parts are reviled, just because (meaning no reasons or nuances given). Not as bad as in previous decades, and based on a couple psychology site articles most people honestly just don't care outside of their own parts and parts they want. Though Lucille Ball was reportedly unhappy when a sitcom in 1970 featured a guy who was interested in guy parts ("All in the Family", episode "Judging Books By Covers", hence her decade later championing a different sitcom since it didn't demand the audience have to think or feel threatened ("Three's Company", in a special episode she hosted.))

 

[Christopher]

It was probably cheaper to just write it in instead of using camera angles and altered storylines.

There was also the fact that I Love Lucy was the first multi-camera sitcom filmed before a studio audience, so they couldn't have hidden it very well in that format.

Desilu is the same company that green-lit another pilot, since they already threw millions into sets and other designs for "The Cage" and wanted to double down before dismantling it all.

The decision to order a pilot is made by the network, not the studio. There's no point making a pilot if you don't have anyone to try to sell the show to. NBC recognized that Star Trek had promise but that "The Cage" wasn't an ideal pilot for it. Desilu at the time was in decline, producing only The Lucy Show and otherwise surviving by renting out its facilities to other production companies. It made "The Cage" at feature quality to show it was capable of mounting such a sophisticated production, but that meant it failed to do what a pilot should do, i.e. represent the budget and logistical requirements of a typical episode so the network can figure out how much a season would cost them. So NBC asked for a second pilot that would better represent that, as well as making the changes they requested in the cast.

Also, contrary to popular belief, ST was hardly the first show to get a second pilot: https://startrekfactcheck.blogspot.com/2016/04/second-pilot-episodes-before-star-trek.html

Lucille has been said to be a prude so it is interesting that she would write into the show - a show where they had 2 separate beds in the bedroom - her pregnancy.

Most shows back then used double beds -- it was network censorship and society's prudishness in general.

Wait, sex doesn't involve man parts too so it's not a one-way street?

I was thinking about the childbirth itself rather than what initiated the process, but I did say it resulted from sex, so I implicitly covered that too.

 

[The Overlord]

fuck humanity after 762 episode and movies i'm sick of boring ass humans give me some caitian or more gorn !

But this show is aimed at kids, not hardcore Trekkies and its easier to sell a show to kids with human characters then it is with aliens. Now that's not always the case, Nickelodeon also makes Ninja Turtle cartoon that features nonhuman leads, but this is the first Star Trek cartoon.

I remember my mother not allowing us kids in the room during "Friday's Child" because there was—gasp!—a pregnant woman who was—gasp!—about to give birth. This was during mid-1970s syndication.

There are gay marriages in kids cartoons nowadays. Censorship is way looser now, which is really exciting for a new Star Trek cartoon.

 

[Christopher]

But this show is aimed at kids, not hardcore Trekkies and its easier to sell a show to kids with human characters then it is with aliens.

Whaaaa?? Since when? Kids watch plenty of shows starring aliens, robots, monsters, talking animals, mythical creatures, etc. It's adults who are harder to sell on nonhuman characters. Kids will accept just about anything.

 

[The Overlord]

Whaaaa?? Since when? Kids watch plenty of shows starring aliens, robots, monsters, talking animals, mythical creatures, etc. It's adults who are harder to sell on nonhuman characters. Kids will accept just about anything.

Except the main lead is often human, look at Steven Universe and Adventure Time, full of over the top nonhuman characters, but the main character is human. Sure there are some franchises with nonhuman leads, like Transformers or TMNT, but the leads in these cartoons are often human.

There is a Nickelodeon cartoon called the Loud House and originally the creator wanted everyone to be cartoon rabbits, put Nick asked for them to be humans instead.

 

[Christopher]

There is a Nickelodeon cartoon called the Loud House and originally the creator wanted everyone to be cartoon rabbits, put Nick asked for them to be humans instead.

But one of the biggest animation franchises in recent years is My Little Pony. And Disney's reboot of DuckTales seems to be pretty successful. Just because one show got a note to make its characters human, that doesn't prove a systematic prejudice. And the request of a network executive doesn't prove what you claimed before, that children are hard to sell on nonhuman leads. The biases of executives prove nothing about the biases of children, even though the levels of maturity may be similar.

 

[The Overlord]

But one of the biggest animation franchises in recent years is My Little Pony. And Disney's reboot of DuckTales seems to be pretty successful. Just because one show got a note to make its characters human, that doesn't prove a systematic prejudice. And the request of a network executive doesn't prove what you claimed before, that children are hard to sell on nonhuman leads. The biases of executives prove nothing about the biases of children, even though the levels of maturity may be similar.

Except what's the average of human leads to nonhuman leads in animated series aimed at children? I noted two shows filled with nonhumans as main characters, but the lead is still human. Or look at the Star Wars cartoons, lots of nonhuman characters, but the leads are still human.

I am not saying that is always the case, but more often then not, the lead is human in kids cartoons, even though there are exceptions.

 

[captainkirk]

TMNT, Gargoyles, Transformers, the list goes on. They may have human characters, but the stars (and the reason kids watch) are not human.

 

[Christopher]

Except what's the average of human leads to nonhuman leads in animated series aimed at children?

Does that matter? An average does not dictate individual cases. Something being average does not forbid alternatives from existing, despite the way many people abuse the concept of an average to try to claim that it should. The objective fact is, quite a few kids' shows do have nonhuman leads and always have.

If kids were uncomfortable with the inhuman, then how do you explain Sesame Street and Teletubbies and the like? Most kids grow up surrounded by stuffed animals and toys of all shapes that they imbue with sentience and personality in their play. Children have zero problem accepting inhuman characters. That kind of xenophobia is a disease of adults.

 

[captainkirk]

Does that matter? An average does not dictate individual cases. Something being average does not forbid alternatives from existing, despite the way many people abuse the concept of an average to try to claim that it should. The objective fact is, quite a few kids' shows do have nonhuman leads and always have.

If kids were uncomfortable with the inhuman, then how do you explain Sesame Street and Teletubbies and the like? Most kids grow up surrounded by stuffed animals and toys of all shapes that they imbue with sentience and personality in their play. Children have zero problem accepting inhuman characters. That kind of xenophobia is a disease of adults.

I'm just confused as to why Star Trek fans, of all people, seem to have a problem accepting non-human characters. If anything, there haven't been enough aliens in the main casts. TOS and DSC have been especially poor in this area.

 

[Tim Thomason]

I'm just confused as to why Star Trek fans, of all people, seem to have a problem accepting non-human characters. If anything, there haven't been enough aliens in the main casts. TOS and DSC have been especially poor in this area.

TOS/TAS: 1 out of 3 (Spock, although he's half-human)
TNG: 3 out of 9 (Data, Worf, half-human Troi)
DS9: 5 out of 9 (Kira, Odo, Worf, Dax, Quark. Also the augmented Bashir and the Emissary Sisko were "more than" human)
Voyager: 4/5 out of 9 (Tuvok, half-human Torres, Doctor, Neelix, Kes. Also, Seven was pretty Borgified)
Enterprise: 2 out of 7 (T'Pol, Phlox)
Discovery: 3 out of 7 (Saru, Tyler, half-human Stamets. Also, Lorca was from another universe and Culber has quite abit of otherness due to his resurrection via jahSepp. And, of course, Michael is Vulcan in all but DNA)

The worst offender is Enterprise, which makes sense given its time period. Discovery is actually better than TNG (although TNG had many Data/Worf episodes that skew the perception).

 

[Christopher]

Also the augmented Bashir and the Emissary Sisko were "more than" human

Biologically, Sisko was 100% human. It's just that his mother was mind-controlled and essentially raped by the Prophets, forced to marry and procreate with Joseph Sisko while having no control of her body.

half-human Stamets

Huh? Stamets is human, with a few "space tardigrade" gene sequences spliced in. You might as well say that someone infected by a retrovirus is "half-virus."

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Variety Link. I'm surprised it's for Nickelodeon and not CBS-AA.

About fraking time, too. Hopefully, it'll be CGI, with a design similar to Clone Wars.

The quote is about something that Star Wars had that Star Trek didn't have much of, which would appeal to kids. I don't know how you got forcing Trek into a Star Wars mold from that. The idea is having characters kids can identify more with, as in instead of just showing the space men they want to be when they grew up, show another young person who wants to be the space man when they grow up. You know, like Luke Skywalker. That's a broad category of character that can appear in any number of franchises, not a restricting mold. Is there any reason not to have such characters other than because Star Wars? Would it not be a way to aim the series at younger people ("good idea")?

People forget that Star Trek and Star Wars are both space opera, and that Star Trek from the very beginning was described as 'a science fiction/action adventure program'; it isn't 2001: A Space Odyssey. That's why there are fans that have come up with their own Star Trek 'series' concepts like this one and this one that aren't strictly about exploration.

 

[Cake]

Discovery: 3 out of 7 (Saru, Tyler, half-human Stamets. Also, Lorca was from another universe and Culber has quite abit of otherness due to his resurrection via jahSepp. And, of course, Michael is Vulcan in all but DNA)

Michael is not Vulcan at all. She very often shows her emotions openly. She had for example tons of crying scenes. Maybe is season 1 it was a bit less so, but in season 2 there is really no typical Vulcan behaviour left.

Stamets is human. Both his parents are human. He only has a little bit of tardigrade DNA in him now. But that is in my opinion not enough to count him as an alien.

Lorca and Culber have an ununsual history, but still human.

And Tyler doesn't really feel like an alien, too. He looks like a human, he acts like a human and he has the memory of a human life. He might be technically a Klingon, but there is not much Klingoness left now.

The only one in the DIS main cast who really looks like an alien is Saru.

Spoiler

He once also acted alien, but then they got rid of his fear ganglia and since then I don't really notice a difference in his behaviour to humans anymore. It is really a shame that they change him in this way.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Michael is not Vulcan at all. She very often shows her emotions openly. She had for example tons of crying scenes. Maybe is season 1 it was a bit less so, but in season 2 there is really no typical Vulcan behaviour left.

I'm not sure I'd go that far. She shows emotion, and in fact is becoming one of the most emotional members of the crew (beside Tilly), but emotionality aside, Michael still demonstrates all the traits one would expect of a Vulcan: an eidetic memory; an overreliance on logic; a mind open enough to explore scientific phenomena.

It's hard to explain, but she just seems more Vulcan than human to me, and it's one of my favorite traits of the character.

 

[Cake]

I'm not sure I'd go that far. She shows emotion, and in fact is becoming one of the most emotional members of the crew (beside Tilly), but emotionality aside, Michael still demonstrates all the traits one would expect of a Vulcan: an eidetic memory; an overreliance on logic; a mind open enough to explore scientific phenomena.

It's hard to explain, but she just seems more Vulcan than human to me, and it's one of my favorite traits of the character.

For me she acts more like you would expect from a smart human. At least it was in season 2 so. In season 1 she had a bit more Vulcan like behaviour left. Practically all the DIS characters have an open mind and like exploring, some are just not science experts. But the ones who are like Tilly, Stamets,

Spoiler

Reno, Po

are just like her in this way. It is not even that she shows an overreliance on logic. She had hunches or sudden inspirations before. Moments, when some things got suddenly clear to her. When was it said that she has an eidetic memory? Either way it would be a (rare) human trait as you can't learn to have it. You are either born with it or not.