Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x14 - "Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2"

[Gonzo]

Didn't Fringe (another Kurtzman production) completely reboot with an alternate universe where none of the characters remembered what happened before for one season?

Yeah but that was the point of the show from the start so it's not like they just added it later.

Great show.

I honestly can't see this massive reset as anything else but a no-conficence vote of the creators in their own creation. I have never seen a show making the decision to invalidate it's own show this much, no matter how much of a retooling and behind-the-scenes shamblings it inbetween had.

Like, some shows definitely improve from some major changes. "How I met your mother" would have been a lot better if they found the mother somewhere in the middle of the show and worked from there. But this is akin to throwing Ted and his kids out and turning it into "the Barney Stinson show". While still bearing the original name.

It's just....insane.

THIS.
Very much, this.
Or just be honest, and say it's a reboot or an elseworld-tale, where everything is the same as the original, except for the changes specifically mentioned.

But I never got how these new writers have THIS much problems with staying in "canon"? Like - literally EVERY story has it's own lore! No matter if you're writing for "Magnum" (he has a war backstory), "Transformers" (it has a Cybertron backstory) or various superhero movies (they all have previous stories and backstories).

How hard could it have been to just add a new story, with new characters to the lore, and be done with it? That's how you would do literally every other show as well, be it a cop show, a detective show, or a medieval fantasy adventure.

You don't just throw the entire thing away just because you fucked up the backstory a bit!

We will never know how much of an effect the changes behind the scenes made to what would have been.

I do understand why some were so opposed to a proper hard reset but it would at least have made sense due to all the time interference we have seen, it would have taken big balls to do it though.

Really not convinced that what we got is better, the crew are supposed to forget about it but I doubt the Klingons will and they don't play by Starfleet's rules, it feels like it just got tacked on the end to try and tie up loose ends.

If need be they could have just come up with some reason why the changes don't affect the Discovery and Enterprise crew.

Will be watching the show later or tomorrow, not sure yet.

 

[plynch]

I don't want to read 30 pp. of thread.
Can someone say why, once Control was dead, they had to go forward in time still?
And 2. Doesn't the spore drive jump in time? Can't they just come back?

 

[Discofan]

Somewhere I read the hypothesis that "Borg" could be a phenomenon that ebbs and flows throughout galactic history. So there could have been multiple "origins" for the Borg over the past thousands of years, and none of them contradict each other.

Kor

If the Borg are ebbing it is because they are fought by a superior adversary and if you are strong enough to make the Borg ebb, you'd be foolhardy to stop before they are ebbed into nothingness.

 

[ITDUDE]

Did it?
Holy fuck.

Yeah one of the characters was pregnant, had a baby and then poof, all gone. No baby, no memory of baby. I never finished watching the show, but it was pretty radical.

 

[Gonzo]

Yeah one of the characters was pregnant, had a baby and then poof, all gone. No baby, no memory of baby. I never finished watching the show, but it was pretty radical.

Brilliant show loved it from start to finish.

 

[Lord Garth]

What I am saying is that there is no modus Vivendi with the Borg. Either you fight them or you put your head in the sand hoping they'll leave you alone. I one case you'll hate to exterminate them and in the other, they'll exterminate you or put an end to your way of life if you will. You can't have Borg as your neighbor and hope that they'll leave you alone. That's antinomic with the very concept of the Borg.

I think Discovery should leave the Borg alone and let the "TNG" Series deal with them. Whether it's the Picard Series or something else. That's where I think it makes the most sense to have stories about the Borg. We'll now have three types of Treks: the TOS Family of Series, the TNG Family of Series, and the Disco Family of Series. I think Alex Kurtzman wants to set it up so that one set of shows doesn't have to worry about what the other two sets are doing.

There are some novels out there, from what I understand, that address how the Borg are dealt with. Maybe they'll do something along those lines eventually. I just prefer that it not be in DSC S3.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yeah one of the characters was pregnant, had a baby and then poof, all gone. No baby, no memory of baby. I never finished watching the show, but it was pretty radical.

And then, for the last season they...

Spoiler: Fringe final season

Jump 30 years to a crapsack future, and become the resistance to aliens who took over earth.

I thought it was unique and ballsy, even if it was frustrating that "our" characters were swapped out for alternate versions (right after dealing with an alternate universe which also had alternate versions) and then they totally change the show's format.

Primeval did the same trick to soft-reboot the show after season one, with only the lead character remembering the original timeline. It allowed them to teak characterisations, split people up etc.

 

[Rusty0918]

I know the past which what I was speaking about. I didn't say the Disco would never go toward a dystopian future. What I am saying is that it wouldn't be Star-Trekkie. In fact, it would be the opposite of Star Trekkie.

There are a lot of questions and a lot of speculation about what will happen now; possibilities are wide open, though it's highly unlikely Burnham and company will EVER return to their own time. And for that matter, did they overshoot or undershoot the time?

 

[Tuskin38]

What I am saying is that it wouldn't be Star-Trekkie. In fact, it would be the opposite of Star Trekkie.

Star Trek can be anything.
Was DS9 not Star Trek?

 

[fireproof78]

You don't just throw the entire thing away just because you fucked up the backstory a bit!

Given the reactions of fans I cannot say that I agree with this statement. At some point in time it becomes too much.

I'm willing to let them tell the story they want. Let it fall where it may.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

If only the Enterprise was made out of whatever that blastdoor was made out of.

And why don't they make the plane out of the same material as the black box....

 

[Jadeb]

Perhaps in the next season we will get storylines that have Discovery in the future somehow working in parallel with Enterprise in the past.

Yeah, I’m worried we’re not shed of Ash Tyler yet.

 

[Tuskin38]

Yeah, I’m worried we’re not shed of Ash Tyler yet.

I don’t expect him to show up again until the S31 show

 

[Michael]

1. They couldn't fit 100 people in that corridor intersection so these were the crew's reps.

Then my question would be: Why does the whole crew decide to throw away their lives and careers and leave their time frame, when originally they were presenting it as something Burnham could have done alone?

2. They had to wait until the suit was fabricated before putting it together.

That doesn‘t square with what was shown. We see the individual parts being fabricated right in this very episode. So again: Why didn‘t they do it last week instead of having long goodbyes in the corridors?

3. The last two signals were created this episode.

And? Why were they seeing them in the beginning of the season, when later they talked about them as if they hadn‘t appeared? What‘s the timeline of these signals? Maybe someone needs to draw me a map? (Or, I don’t know, acknowledge that it doesn‘t make sense.)

4. It was where they got their first pics of the Red Angel.

You act as if this answers the question somehow. Why did they need an image of the Red Angel?

5. Its described as a blast door. It's designed to block blasts.

And it‘s believable to you that an explosion that destroys a fourth of the saucer (!) doesn‘t harm someone who‘s only a couple of feet from the explosion? Because it‘s a blast door?

6. She was being flippant.

Why would she be flippant about her name in that situation, though? Her line only makes half-sense as a wink to the audience. (But even then, just minutes earlier they gave her a name!) In-universe the guy doing the interrogation would just ask why the hell she doesn‘t just state her name.

7. Given that when the Discovery is damaged it creates chuncks instead of shards, its probably made of composite materials that can't be magnetized, which is why Georgiou lead him to a floor that could be magnetized.

Seems like a pretty lame explanation when really they should have anticipated Leland entering the ship and should have prepared for that very moment.

8. The crystal only had enough power to make one jump forwards in time and that would be 950 years. Backwards took less energy as it was only a short period of time.

Seems weird then to make it such a big story point that you could only use it for one travel, when you can actually use it several times.

10. You make the knowledge and information classified and illegal to discuss. The Federation doesn't have a freeflow of information like we have and never has in any series.

But why would they have to go to such lengths? What about the knowledge of the ship and its crew‘s real fate could create a similar problem?

The control they were fighting was a version of Control which had been taken over by code send by Control from the future. It wasn't wholly future control, which is why it needed the sphere data to become what the future version was but clearly couldn't send all of itself to the past and/or current computer systems weren't entirely compatible with a program 500 years more sophisticated.. Imagine trying to load Windows 10 on a Commodore 64.

That‘s not the turn of events how it was presented on the show, though. Control was acting rogue even before it had contact with its future version.

 

[Gonzo]

And then, for the last season they...

Spoiler: Fringe final season

Jump 30 years to a crapsack future, and become the resistance to aliens who took over earth.

I thought it was unique and ballsy, even if it was frustrating that "our" characters were swapped out for alternate versions (right after dealing with an alternate universe which also had alternate versions) and then they totally change the show's format.

Primeval did the same trick to soft-reboot the show after season one, with only the lead character remembering the original timeline. It allowed them to teak characterisations, split people up etc.

They switch in the end though to the original characters, one Olivia was great but two was even better.

It was hard for me to choose at times between the blonde or the redhead version.

No harm having Nimoy on the show either.

Walter was absolutely batshit crazy and great fun to watch.

 

[Cake]

I thought this was just awful. I‘m only on my phone at this moment, so I won‘t be able to write much. But boy, I did expect so much more from this finale. I‘m kinda dumbfounded at how many seem to have enjoyed this convoluted illogical mess of an episode. I almost feel stupid for not being able to just sit back and enjoy it more.

Just a couple of thoughts: Why was the ship fully manned when they made such a big point last week of the small group of people staying on the ship? Why did they only begin now to build the suit when they seemed to have so much time last week for all the goodbyes? And: Where and why did they initially see seven red signals, when there had only been five? Why was the red signal above Terralysium of any importance? Why does a door protect Pike from a torpedo blast? Why did they mention Number One‘s name mid-episode only to revert back to mysteriousness in the debriefing? Why couldn‘t they magnetize (or whatever) the floor beneath Leland earlier, like Spock did a couple of episodes ago? Why did they make a point of the crystal being only able to do ONE jump, when they did several this episode? Why did they still have to travel to the future if Control was disabled? And the mother of all (at least for me): Why the hell would they make a secret out of the Discovery and all people onboard? And how the fuck would that even work realistically? I‘m sorry, but this doesn‘t make even a lick of sense.

Sorry, I‘m just so massively disappointed in the finale and what this season, which started out so promising and had so many highlights, has come to. I can‘t honestly say I care how this show continues at this point.

A lot of things were really written weirdly and make no sense.

"Why was the ship fully manned when they made such a big point last week of the small group of people staying on the ship?"

I guess a lot of random no names decided later to go to the future, too. This is a shame. With a reduced cast it would be easier to finally properly develop them in season 3 and spread the love screen time wise better around. I mean even the main characters Tilly, Saru, Stamets and Culbert didn't seem to get proper focus in the last few episodes.

- "Why did they only begin now to build the suit when they seemed to have so much time last week for all the goodbyes?"

Uh, I really can't think of a good explanation for that. I was wondering the same thing while watching the episode. I get that they couldn't finish it earlier without the time crystal, but I thought while watching the episode before that the rest was already ready.

- "Where and why did they initially see seven red signals, when there had only been five?"

Not only that I wonder why they didn't know the position of all of them from the start? I mean in 2x01 they were all there at once at the same time on the bridge screen. This is what started the whole Red Angel mystery. So it is really confusing that later in the season they appear one after another as if they were never shining earlier before at the same time.

- "Why was the red signal above Terralysium of any importance?"

This one I can answer. It is the start point of mother Burnham and a safe place. They plan to go there in the future. Of course I guess they could have also gone somewhere else, but don't want to for whatever reason.

- "Why does a door protect Pike from a torpedo blast?"

Strong door? The bigger question though is why they can't close that door manually from the other side. Seems like a big planning mistake. They should fire the engineer responsible for it. Of course Pike and the Admiral were also not particular smart. I would have gotten a solid box, put it under the door, push the lever, crawl beneath the door, get rid of the box so the door can close and safe the ship.

- "Why did they mention Number One‘s name mid-episode only to revert back to mysteriousness in the debriefing?"

I guess she just likes to call herself Number One.

- "Why couldn‘t they magnetize (or whatever) the floor beneath Leland earlier, like Spock did a couple of episodes ago?"

Maybe Discovery has a floor they can't magnetize? I guess the real off screen reason though was that they wanted a fist fight before the super advanced computer program gets beaten by magnets.

- "Why did they make a point of the crystal being only able to do ONE jump, when they did several this episode?"

Maybe they meant that she can only jump once with the Discovery in tow? It is such a convoluted mess I can't think of anything better.

- "Why did they still have to travel to the future if Control was disabled?"

I guess the Enterprise forgot to call them in time and no one bothered to look outside and see the disabled Section 31 ships. Or it is a case of better safe than sorry just in case the Federation is so idiotic again and build another Control. So or so this is a case of bad writing, because an explanation of an important plot point is missing. They can't say on the one hand that Discovery has to go to the future to stop Control and on the other hand defeat it earlier thanks to fists and magnets. And either way the torpedo in the Enterprise has shown how you can destroy a ship from within. Or make everyone shoot on the Discovery without its crew. After all in this battle the sphere data didn't flee despite the ship getting nearly destroyed. It doesn't seem that the sphere's data survival instincts can't be overcome.

- "Why the hell would they make a secret out of the Discovery and all people onboard? And how the fuck would that even work realistically?"

I get the why. It is better that no one knows of the time travel suit or the spore drive because of its universe jumping capabilities and the harm in can cause to the spore lifeforms and tardigrades. Both technologies are really dangerous, especially in the wrong hands. How though I don't know. Especially Burnham is super famous thanks to everyone thinking she started the war with the Klingons which nearly got the whole Federation destroyed. On the positive side the whole Discovery crew got medals for rescuing the Federation and Burnham made a big speech. So Burnham especially is famous for two very significant historic events.

This is really a series for which you should shut down your mind. This is easier to do when you watch a more campy and fun series which doesn't take itself too serious. It is harder to do with a series like DIS which is more on the serious side. You just expect more attention to details and a more coherent plot from series like these.

 

[Mr Awe]

And I honestly don't get what type of story-possibilites the 33rd century has to offer that the 23rd - outside of Federation space, if the ship actually went exploring - couldn't have offered as well. Except for extreme lore-galores of the future of familiar elements, planets and species. Which the previous two seasons have been. Which have now essentially been completely ereased from lore. Ugh.

Honestly, the time jump just lessens the load of the canon baggage. They can literally setup any storytelling environment that they want. Old races in new power dynamics. New races. Situations that can dramatically change the landscape without causing canon issues. It just allows them to open things up and tell stories they want while being fairly unconstrained.

And, no, this didn't erase the events of the first two seasons. They have happened. It's just that those in Starfleet aren't supposed to talk about them. But, there was no timeline reset. What we saw happen, "actually" happened in the timeline.

 

[Mudd]

Then my question would be: Why does the whole crew decide to throw away their lives and careers and leave their time frame, when originally they were presenting it as something Burnham could have done alone?

Because then they would have been permanently separated from The Burnham.

Easy choice.

 

[Jadeb]

I don’t expect him to show up again until the S31 show

I thought that previously, but he’s like a bad case of space fungus — hard to get rid of.

I fear he will be working in season three to get Georgiou back for the Section 31 show.

 

[ClintDagger]

Well, anybody that pays attention will see indicators in the Internetz that They are working on Season-3 come mid-summer.

I know plenty of fans that don’t look to the internet for that type of thing. I think you just proved my point. If you have to go search the internet to put the show in perspective then probably something the show portrayed was at least somewhat confusing.

I’m not saying it’s a huge deal. I’m just surprised they ended the episode without some clear indication that S3 was going to be the DSC crew tooling around 930 years in the future.