Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

[Kirk Prime]

I didn't see a calendar hanging up in engineering while it was being bombarded with Delta Radiation. Pike doesn't know the (star)date of the accident.

I don't think he needs to. He can live his life, and see that this is something post Enterprise. He sees there are cadets involved. He would certainly be able to figure out the room when he sees it, so it really is a matter of taking every precaution to prevent an accident involving cadets.

I think it makes total sense. Time travel stories are often about the impossibility of changing things once they are known to happen. Taking the crystal evidently sets Pike on a path where he gets maimed.

Pike's accident was just that--an accident. A terrible situation where he heroically saved the lives of a lot of people at great personal cost. Many accidents are pointless. This one certainly fits in that category. If you know that something is going to malfunction, or there will be an explosion, you make it a point to take steps to prevent that accident. Let's say you are going to slip in the shower. Usually that's because you are not careful. So you BE extra careful, and not slip.

Pike also now knows no harm will ever come to him until that accident, meaning that he knows he will survive. That could make him take extra risks.

Pike ending up in the chair isn't about what day of the week he chooses to go in to work. He ends up in the chair because of the man he chooses to be no matter the consequences.

He can be a hero and avoid the accident.

What made no sense is that he was told that he could walk away from this fate, but can't once he takes the time crystal. What changes by accepting the crystal unless he forgets what he saw? Yet, it doesn't look like he forgot.

 

[Kemaiku]

If Pike knows that the only part of the future he can change is what happens to him specifically, then he is aware that the senario of an old ship suffering a random containment failure possibly due to whatever that cadet was doing at the intermix controls, he'll choose to stay.

He's not a man that will let anyone suffer in his place, if he thinks those cadets are going to come to harm he'll be there to stop it.

For all we know, there are other "accidents" he manages to stop precisely because he now hovers over cadet training voyages like a hawk making sure they don't happen.

 

[Kirk Prime]

If Pike knows that the only part of the future he can change is what happens to him specifically, then he is aware that the senario of an old ship suffering a random containment failure possibly due to whatever that cadet was doing at the intermix controls, he'll choose to stay.

He's not a man that will let anyone suffer in his place, if he thinks those cadets are going to come to harm he'll be there to stop it.

For all we know, there are other "accidents" he manages to stop precisely because he now hovers over cadet training voyages like a hawk making sure they don't happen.

I agree that Pike would never let someone else suffer his fate or others die when he knows he can do something about it. However, if you can avoid the whole thing, don't you?

Think of any TOS redshirt who dies because he does something stupid. If Kirk knew in advance that such a meaningless death could be avoided, wouldn't he choose a more experienced officer for the mission, and warn him not to do anything stupid?

If Kirk could have prevented McCoy from injecting himself with cordrazeine, and avoided the whole City on the Edge scenario, why wouldn't he?

Pike knows an accident will come with cadets and he saw his fate. It was an accident, not an attack. How many accidents could be avoided if you knew it was coming?

 

[Rainard Fox]

For all we know, there are other "accidents" he manages to stop precisely because he now hovers over cadet training voyages like a hawk making sure they don't happen.

To spend a rest of his active life as a guardian angel for the youths... oh! He is able to do it.

 

[Alan Roi]

I don't think he needs to. He can live his life, and see that this is something post Enterprise. He sees there are cadets involved. He would certainly be able to figure out the room when he sees it, so it really is a matter of taking every precaution to prevent an accident involving cadets.



Pike's accident was just that--an accident. A terrible situation where he heroically saved the lives of a lot of people at great personal cost. Many accidents are pointless. This one certainly fits in that category. If you know that something is going to malfunction, or there will be an explosion, you make it a point to take steps to prevent that accident. Let's say you are going to slip in the shower. Usually that's because you are not careful. So you BE extra careful, and not slip.

Pike also now knows no harm will ever come to him until that accident, meaning that he knows he will survive. That could make him take extra risks.



He can be a hero and avoid the accident.

What made no sense is that he was told that he could walk away from this fate, but can't once he takes the time crystal. What changes by accepting the crystal unless he forgets what he saw? Yet, it doesn't look like he forgot.

 

[Kemaiku]

Pike knows an accident will come with cadets and he saw his fate. It was an accident, not an attack. How many accidents could be avoided if you knew it was coming?

Like I said, his recommendation to Starfleet to up it's maintenance of engineering systems could be coming in season 3 and save plenty of lives, staying with the cadets saves even more. So that by the time he comes to that one incident, his determination to stay has saved a lot more lives than if he'd walked away altogether.

 

[Alan Roi]

I agree that Pike would never let someone else suffer his fate or others die when he knows he can do something about it. However, if you can avoid the whole thing, don't you?

Think of any TOS redshirt who dies because he does something stupid. If Kirk knew in advance that such a meaningless death could be avoided, wouldn't he choose a more experienced officer for the mission, and warn him not to do anything stupid?

If Kirk could have prevented McCoy from injecting himself with cordrazeine, and avoided the whole City on the Edge scenario, why wouldn't he?

Pike knows an accident will come with cadets and he saw his fate. It was an accident, not an attack. How many accidents could be avoided if you knew it was coming?

That was Kirk, the guy who reprogrammed the Kobiyashi Maru test to make sure he could win a test that wasn't intended to be won. This may seem odd to you, but Kirk and Pike are two different people. Different people chart different paths.

 

[fireproof78]

I agree that Pike would never let someone else suffer his fate or others die when he knows he can do something about it. However, if you can avoid the whole thing, don't you?

Because it could put others in harms way, something Pike will not do due to his nature as a person. Telling Pike to avoid is telling him not to be true to himself.

Pike knows an accident will come with cadets and he saw his fate. It was an accident, not an attack. How many accidents could be avoided if you knew it was coming?

This is very black and white thinking, and rarely works out that way. As with most temporal paradoxes and predictions trying to prevent it can usually cause the very thing to happen, and make it worse.

 

[Jax]

I just want to say I hate the term Time Crystal and hate the whole idea of them.

Just bad.

 

[Sakonna]

He can be a hero and avoid the accident.

What made no sense is that he was told that he could walk away from this fate, but can't once he takes the time crystal. What changes by accepting the crystal unless he forgets what he saw? Yet, it doesn't look like he forgot.

My assumption is that, if we were to see what leads up to the mutilation of Pike, it would reflect attempts to be conscious of what the vision showed, which still fail to avert the accident.

Maybe the actual sequence of events that put him in that room came upon him quite unexpectedly, with no time to spare. He probably did spend time trying to make any situations that looked like the accident extra-safe, for him and others, until the moment where he suddenly got this distress call, communications are out, transporters are blocked by Technobabble Radiation, every other senior officer is indisposed or not around, and he has to either immediately go in, save the cadets, and mutilate himself -- or let them die.

I feel like that's a moment I've seen in many time travel stories before, and when they pull it off, it's incredible. The man who had the vision of the future, who carefully prepared to guard against the dangers it revealed, until the sudden moment where he sees that the dark future came from an angle he didn't expect, and so all his attempts to protect against it are for naught, and he recognizes in that moment the futility of attempting to change the future.

Also, if there's an intelligence behind what the time crystals reveals, it clearly possesses a bit of a twisted sensibility. After all, it only showed Pike the gruesomeness of the beep chair, omitting the happy reunion with Vina. Perhaps what we see of the accident is "edited" in a similar way -- revealing enough to suggest ways it might be avoided, but none of them will actually work, or be actively counter-productive.

Perhaps the way the vision is presented even pushes Pike into that place, instead of pushing it away. Maybe he turns down a job teaching/training cadets, precisely because of what he saw in this vision, and that's actually what puts him in the path of this distressed cadet ship.

 

[Mr Awe]

That stuff about him fixing his fate in the future is a load of nonsense. What’s to stop him quitting Starfleet and moving back to Earth?

Because that's just not Pike. We saw he couldn't do that in The Cage when he was worn out and racked with guilt. And, after seeing his fate, he calmed himself down by reminding himself that he's an officer. So, what's stopping him? Himself.

 

[Yistaan]

This is very black and white thinking, and rarely works out that way. As with most temporal paradoxes and predictions trying to prevent it can usually cause the very thing to happen, and make it worse.

I have a bit of a theory. We're told in the Menagerie that Pike was injured in an inspection tour. Nothing about a training exercise.

The scene on Boreth looked like a training exercise, not an inspection tour.

I suppose there's wiggle room they could be one and the same. But what if they're not?

Pike refuses to do any training exercises as a result of his vision. But he's fine with inspection tours (why wouldn't he be)?

He thus averts getting injured in a training exercise and ends up getting injured in an inspection tour per the Menagerie. His attempt to avert the training exercise injury just causes the same injury via inspection tour instead.

 

[Alan Roi]

I just want to say I hate the term Time Crystal and hate the whole idea of them.

Just bad.

The term didn't seem to bother the scientists who've published Time Crystal papers over the last 10 years. Of course, the Star Trek universe has always been just littered with that sort of thing that isn't a good idea to mess with. But sure hate a plot device that just gave us the post powerful character moment of the season.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I don't think he needs to. He can live his life, and see that this is something post Enterprise. He sees there are cadets involved. He would certainly be able to figure out the room when he sees it, so it really is a matter of taking every precaution to prevent an accident involving cadets.

Then you'd possibly get a "Final Destination" scenario whereby the same end result under different circumstances.

Pike's accident was just that--an accident. A terrible situation where he heroically saved the lives of a lot of people at great personal cost. Many accidents are pointless. …

We don't really know how "accidental" it was. Section 31 could have been behind it.

Pike also now knows no harm will ever come to him until that accident, meaning that he knows he will survive. That could make him take extra risks.

No, he knows he will not be horribly mutilated until the "accident." He could be harmed quite a bit between now and then.

He can be a hero and avoid the accident.

No, he really couldn't. He would have to have left the time crystals behind and abandoned the only course of action they know of to possibly defeat Control. You can't sacrifice the lives of an entire galaxy and come out a hero.

What made no sense is that he was told that he could walk away from this fate, but can't once he takes the time crystal. What changes by accepting the crystal unless he forgets what he saw? Yet, it doesn't look like he forgot.

Again, They said he could walk away from that fate if he chose another path. They did not say in choosing another path his fate would be a better one. We also know that if Control succeeds all sentient life will ultimately die therefore he would be paying for another uncertain roll of Fate's dice with the blood of an entire galaxy. Talk about going to the Dark Side!

 

[Tuskin38]

Did I misunderstand the scene in the episode? I was expecting him to save cadets, but we only see him attempt a single rescue and it ends in failure. I suppose it's less poignant a decision for him to make if he knows he's going to suffer heroically versus simply suffer from the attempt, but I felt like the scene was not showing enough of his actions there as I would hope.

End in failure? How?

We don't really know how "accidental" it was. Section 31 could have been behind it.

I find that very unlikely.

 

[cooleddie74]

Time crystals sounds like something straight out of TOS, specifically a Season 1 episode such as "The Alternative Factor." It's sort of perfect for this period of Trek history when you go back and look at how TOS sometimes referred to fantastic technology that operated beyond normal scientific understanding.

It might sound cheesy but this is Star Trek. Cheesy is often the job.

 

[Yistaan]

We don't really know how "accidental" it was. Section 31 could have been behind it.

I'm not sure I really trust these Boreth monks. Tenavik said everyone who came for a time crystal left broken. So every single person who came in has a horrific future? I find that hard to believe.

We all know someone in real life who nothing ever bad happens to. No matter what cruelty or misdeeds they may have committed. We need look no further than the news and history to see that many dictators and war criminals live to an old age peacefully on their ill-gotten gains. I doubt it's different in Trek--which means people coming for the crystals all can't have bad futures.

How do we know the Boreth monks aren't inducing bad future visions and then causing them to happen? That way fear of the time crystals means no one will ever dare take them.

Pike could have had a Klingon spy shadowing him for years waiting for the right time to rupture a baffle plate.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Dilithum Crystals… no problem. Totally scientific.

Time Crystals… complete BS. Totally bad science.

Trekkies are weird about the fictional magic crystal tropes they’ll accept, even when one of them (Time Crystals) is loosely based on an actual scientific thing.

 

[Alan Roi]

Time crystals sounds like something straight out of TOS, specifically a Season 1 episode such as "The Alternative Factor." It's sort of perfect for this period of Trek history when you go back and look at how TOS sometimes referred to fantastic technology that operated beyond normal scientific understanding.

It might sound cheesy but this is Star Trek. Cheesy is often the job.

And apparently real life scientists don't let cheesy get in the way when naming new states of matter.

 

[fireproof78]

Sorry I missed this