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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x11 - "Perpetual Infinity"

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Since Control-Leland only got about half of the sphere data, does that mean that maybe Control in the future will become a big threat like the Borg but never be able to actually wipe out all life? In other words, could the season end with a half victory where they save the galaxy from extinction but they don't completely defeat Control either?
 
So, I realized in the morning while people keep claiming the Control story has been raided from Terminator, it's really a horror movie storyline. Like something from the Cthulhu Mythos. Which is why it doesn't work at all.

Think about it. You have a being of vast power outside the realms of normal time. Like Cthulhu once was, Control will be, and yearns to exist in the present. There is a book of secret knowledge (the Sphere data) which will, if fully read, cause it to manifest itself. And it's capable of possessing individuals - it has done so twice.

The reason it does not work is although the season has been suspenseful, it's not really been frightening in any way. So much of good psychological horror comes down to direction, and Discovery is just directed like an action-adventure show. There were a few scenes last night that could have been creepy if done better (like Leland's "assimilation" and the scene with his face partially disassembled) but for some reason they won't go the whole nine yards and commit to what it is - which is horror.

And as a mother, knowing that my child was in distress, I'd have taken a few minutes to be...Mom. The universe isn't going to lose everyone in the two or three minutes. :rolleyes: If they do - oh well. Who would know? :p

That to me was somewhat understandable. We know she's seen Michael die countless times. They may have had reunions where she's taken off the mask and talked before. It's sort of the inverse of what we see with Mudd in the time loop episode last season. Mudd realizes none of his actions have consequences, so he might as well kill anyone who gets in his way. Gabrielle realizes that all attempts to permanently connect with her daughter have failed so far, thus she's initially resigned to the fact that this instance of Burnham will soon enough die as well.

If Discovery crew saw that the Sec.31 ship was downloading their "end of the galaxy" data, why didn't Pike just rain hell down on that smaller, less defended ship and end the matter then and there? I have a feeling ill like this episode less than i did when I wake up tomorrow.

Because Tyler has plot armor, and because they didn't want the season arc to end yet of course.
 
Where did Control get that nanotech from? It only transmitted itself into Airiam, it didn't bring anything physical back with it from the future, right?
 
I gave this one a 7. It had lots of plot holes (or at least it seems to on first viewing, might change me l my mind when I see it again) but was still very enjoyable despite them.

The way people were dropping when Leland-Control beamed down I thought for sure Nhan was going to get it.
Nah, I think the redshirts in this time period are indestructible. It's only once they start giving them electrified jumpers that keep going off from the slightest bump in a few years time...
 
Where did Control get that nanotech from? It only transmitted itself into Airiam, it didn't bring anything physical back with it from the future, right?
Replicators, people. Use your imagination!
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23rd century replicators?


I think it just lends credence to the Borg Origin Theory.

I mean they already adapted Control from the novels, humanity is also one-half of the genesis of the Borg in the novels too. I wouldn't be surprised if this is where this ends up.
 
There were scenes showing Stamets mourning Culber? You mean, like, multiple scenes? Are they in the deleted scenes section of the blu-rays or something, because I sure as hell don't remember him mourning the passing of his husband in any significant and visible way in season one.

Okay, there were two. His weird confrontation with Ash in the hallway, and looking down at the posthumous medal in the final episode.

The fact remains, Stamets is literally a two-dimensional character. All he is is a spore guy and was in a gay relationship. There are no other established elements of his character. I guess he can be snarky? We basically know nothing else about him though.

It also doesn't help that since Culber has come back onto the show full time it's clear that Wilson Cruz is a much, much better actor than Anthony Rapp. The past few episodes I feel like even if Culber isn't getting more lines, he's jumped ahead of Stamets in the cast hierarchy because they've established a third element to his personalty. He's something besides a nice gay doctor now.

According to the episode, Control needs the sphere data in order to become sentient. But that is still a bit odd since Control seems pretty sentient already.

There are two ways to interpret that.

1. Control was created via a closed temporal loop, which it needs to happen in order to manifest. This sort of implies however that there is a minimal "butterfly effect" and that the sphere data can come to it in many different ways without causing it to cease to exist.

2. Control actually developed in the future, but is attempting to bootstrap itself further into the past for its own purposes. This has been done in science fiction before. See Stephen Baxter's Xelee sequence, where the primary antagonist race travels back in time billions of years to alter its own evolution to give it a head start on everyone else.

I'm glad Terralysium was brought up. By having a human civilization that was pre-warp and far away from everything else, it guaranteed that some humans would survive no matter what Control did. And by lifting them from the WWIII Era, you have a group of people where it would never seriously occur to anyone that they were sent to the other side of the galaxy. Then later on, post-warp Earth and eventually the Federation would never go looking for them.

But that implies all sentient life in the galaxy hasn't been wiped out.

Lordy, I hope that the problem isn't no one in the writer's room knows the correct definition of galaxy.
 
23rd century replicators?


I think it just lends credence to the Borg Origin Theory.

I mean they already adapted Control from the novels, humanity is also one-half of the genesis of the Borg in the novels too. I wouldn't be surprised if this is where this ends up.
The biggest irony would be if the Borg Origin would be attempt to implanting Federation ideal of uniting of races and their peaceful cooexistence into this AI/assimilated Leland.
 
I still don't understand why people are seeing this as a Borg origin story.

If Control wipes out all sentient life, it wipes out the Borg too. If it wipes out the Borg, it has access to all technology the Borg developed and can modify them for centuries. This includes nanoprobes.

Simple enough.
 
^ Maybe in the future Control came from the Borg didn't exist because Control hadn't traveled back in time yet?

The biggest irony would be if the Borg Origin would be attempt to ímplanting Federation ideal of uniting of races and their peaceful cooexistence into this AI/assimilated Leland.
I would actually like that. The Borg is the ultimate enemy of the Federation, its almost poetic that all this time they were essentially fighting their darker half.

We do know that early Borg records are fragmented, so it could make sense that the 24th century Borg wouldn't know/remember this stuff happening in Discovery or its origin with humanity and if something happens to Discovery and its crew that prevents them from reporting all of this to Starfleet (like being flung to the 33rd century) the Borg wouldn't be able to assimilate that information from Starfleet databases, or maybe even if it did it wouldn't make the connection or the connection wouldn't matter to them.


Control-Leeland: "Struggle is pointless"
Control: "You joined Section 31 to keep a brutish universe on its knees, Captain. To maintain order by any means necessary. Your evolution - our evolution - is not a desecration of that oath, but its very fulfillment."

That talk, plus the nanoprobes, assimilation of Leeland, the future Control being able to heavily modify existing tech in order to assimilate data... its all either a giant red herring or Control will become Borg.
 
The fact remains, Stamets is literally a two-dimensional character. All he is is a spore guy and was in a gay relationship. There are no other established elements of his character. I guess he can be snarky? We basically know nothing else about him though.

It also doesn't help that since Culber has come back onto the show full time it's clear that Wilson Cruz is a much, much better actor than Anthony Rapp. The past few episodes I feel like even if Culber isn't getting more lines, he's jumped ahead of Stamets in the cast hierarchy because they've established a third element to his personalty. He's something besides a nice gay doctor now.

In fairness to Rapp, they've given Cruz way more to work with, as you note. It's beginning to feel unfortunate that Stamets can't understand why Culber isn't exactly as he was before he, you know, died. Not sure you can play that much better than Rapp is playing it.
 
The biggest irony would be if the Borg Origin would be attempt to implanting Federation ideal of uniting of races and their peaceful cooexistence into this AI/assimilated Leland.

Been thinking somewhere along these lines too. Just wondering how it forgets it's origin in the first place.

Also, if this a Borg origin story, who thinks Detmer might be among the first drones, possibly even the first Queen.
 
One more thing. I'm really let down at how many different mysteries this episode explained away:
  1. The dumb line introduced about "bio-neural readings" last episode showing it was Michael is handwaved
  2. Gabrielle mentions in an offhand way in her log that she saved the New Edenists without really explaining how
  3. Gabrielle tells Spock that she reached out to him because his dyslexia
  4. The episode more or less closes the door on anyone else ever wearing the Red Angel suit
  5. Sphere data - which was established as something Control wanted in Project Daedalus - is now the McGuffin for the entire season arc
  6. Dark matter saved from asteroid in first episode is now used for technobabble solution (albeit with little success).
Basically, part of why this episode was so unsatisfying is it (and the previous episode) are pretty transparently just an awkward retcon of whatever the former showrunners planned, attempting to wedge them into Kurtzman's new story idea.

It's not surprising at all if one author starts a book and another author finishes it, what you get comes across as pretty incoherent.
 
^ Maybe in the future Control came from the Borg didn't exist because Control hadn't traveled back in time yet?


I would actually like that. The Borg is the ultimate enemy of the Federation, its almost poetic that all this time they were essentially fighting their darker half.

We do know that early Borg records are fragmented, so it could make sense that the 24th century Borg wouldn't know/remember this stuff happening in Discovery or its origin with humanity and if something happens to Discovery and its crew that prevents them from reporting all of this to Starfleet (like being flung to the 33rd century) the Borg wouldn't be able to assimilate that information from Starfleet databases, or maybe even if it did it wouldn't make the connection or the connection wouldn't matter to them.


Control-Leeland: "Struggle is pointless"
Control: "You joined Section 31 to keep a brutish universe on its knees, Captain. To maintain order by any means necessary. Your evolution - our evolution - is not a desecration of that oath, but its very fulfillment."

That talk, plus the nanoprobes, assimilation of Leeland, the future Control being able to heavily modify existing tech in order to assimilate data... its all either a giant red herring or Control will become Borg.

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I noticed when Dr. Burnham travelled through time, it looked a lot like when Discovery went through time last season, when she emerged in the 33rd century, it even made the same sound as when Discovery returns to normal space after jumping.
 
In fairness to Rapp, they've given Cruz way more to work with, as you note. It's beginning to feel unfortunate that Stamets can't understand why Culber isn't exactly as he was before he, you know, died. Not sure you can play that much better than Rapp is playing it.

It's also worth noting that since the Spore Drive was basically dropped after the fifth episode (apparently Berg/Harberts liked it, and Kurtzman didn't) Stamets has remained the technobabble guy, but given his background as an astromycologist it's pretty inexplicable he's just doing generic "tech" stuff now - especially considering in his back and forth earlier in the season with Reno it was clear that he doesn't know that much about normal Federation tech.
 
One more thought - why aren't they using the Spore Drive now? It's been canonically established it can be used to jump forward in time. Seems they could just jump to the 32nd/33rd century and stay there, and the Sphere data would be safely away from Control.

Hell, maybe that's the plot for the third season? They can't go back because it risks destroying the galaxy until they figure out how to unload it from their computer banks, so they tool around in the future for a season?
 
True, but my reading was that because she got shot by that Klingon mid-beamout
Once again its a pity President Archer didn't leave some kind of note in an emergency UFP archive "in case of universe threatening

time emergency call Daniels" I mean, couldn't Daniels have left them a Captain Marvel pager or something?
Didn't mama B say in the episode that the suit was bonded to her on a genetic level, that only she could operate it? Maybe that's why when it was pulled back to the future she was also pulled back?

Also we see how she gets into the suit it just flows over her.
must be hell when she drops it off at the cleaners

Yeah its kind of weird. We know that by the 26th century archaeologists regularly use time travel to study the past.
I have to give Mudd credit. His time crystal gizmo might have had less range but it was way more reliable.

I think this is the most phaser fire we’ve gotten in a single episode since Season 1.
I think its may be the first time since WNMHGB that they really show the phaser rifles punch harder than the type one and twos, also.

One more thought - why aren't they using the Spore Drive now?

I think from Stamets dialogue last week that the Spore drive is still offline. He was having trouble fixing it.
 
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