Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x10 - "The Red Angel"

[Noname Given]

Its easy to imagine that Spock did the math and that the antimatter in the Constellation's warp core was the amount required to do the job and that the measly amount of antimatter in their photon torpedoes weren't going to be sufficient to do the job required.

It was the Impulse Engine - the Warp Core had been deactivated and warp Drive was beyond repair.

 

[IMC Headquarters]

Sadly, Admiral Ackbar's "IT'S A TRAP!" meme doesn't survive into the 23rd century...

 

[Alan Roi]

It was the Impulse Engine - the Warp Core had been deactivated and warp Drive was beyond repair.

My error. Still a lot more antimatter to be found in the Constellation's engines than in a few torpedoes I would think.

 

[Uhura's Song]

Laland had just finished telling Burnham he felt he bore at least some responsibility for her parents' deaths. Granted, Leland might have been blaming himself up a bit too much about that, but I don't blame Burnham for reacting to the news the way she did.

Maybe once she thinks about it she would be more forgiving of Leland's relative carelessness in not considering that the Klingons could track the crystal. However, in that moment when he told her, I find it quite plausible that she would be upset enough to punch him.

I do. I watched the episode. 2nd poor one in a row after possibly the best one of the series.

1) It is totally out of character. So much for logic and Vulcan restraint, eh?

2) It is anti-Star Fleet. Her parents were willing agents of Sec 31 and were killed in the line of duty. As a Star Fleet officer she should Grok that. Not to mention assaulting a superior officer.

But since Burnham hates Sec 31 she cannot handle her parents were agents and reacts childishly and violently. Yes, Lealand should have told her earlier, but that is her only real beef.

Again, boo I say. Another stupid character decision for the cheap/quick benefit of the punch scene. Barf.

 

[Uhura's Song]

Plus, on the whole trap the RA thing. The reasoning was awful.

Becauae future Burnham will know it is a trap if RA is Burnham. And the nature of said trap. So Burnham should have been excluded from the discussion entirely.

Georgiou or Tyler should have come up with the idea and they should have done it to her blind. Or near as possible.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I do. I watched the episode. 2nd poor one in a row after possibly the best one of the series.

1) It is totally out of character. So much for logic and Vulcan restraint, eh?

2) It is anti-Star Fleet. Her parents were willing agents of Sec 31 and were killed in the line of duty. As a Star Fleet officer she should Grok that. Not to mention assaulting a superior officer.

But since Burnham hates Sec 31 she cannot handle her parents were agents and reacts childishly and violently. Yes, Lealand should have told her earlier, but that is her only real beef.

Again, boo I say. Another stupid character decision for the cheap/quick benefit of the punch scene. Barf.

Even actual Vulcans crack under pressure.

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[ClayinCA]

[...]future Burnham will know it is a trap if RA is Burnham. And the nature of said trap. So Burnham should have been excluded from the discussion entirely.

Georgiou or Tyler should have come up with the idea and they should have done it to her blind. Or near as possible.

I was yelling this at the TV screen throughout the last fifteen or so minutes of the episode. I'm glad I wasn't the only one.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Considering that they already adapted a concept from the novels (Control itself) this just raises the possibility.

Not just from the novels, but specifically other @David Mack novels. I call shenanigans. Not sure on what, exactly, but still...

Hadn't even considered that flaw. Good point.

Because it's not a flaw? Mama Burnham has been giving herself "spoilers", and she showed up when she did because she knows that's when she did, and that Michael has to take the suit from there/then.

I was disappointed they didn't try the old Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure's Ted's Dad's lost keys trick.

I literally asked aloud if they weren't going to try the Bill and Ted trick, first.

Yeah, my favorite is TOS S2 - "The Doomsday Machine" in that, you mean to tell me a Photon Torpedo (which they never EVEN attempt to use in the episode once) warhead (which is supposedly Antimatter-based) can't be set to deliver an explosion equal to 97.835 megatons (or larger) - and fired directly into the Doomsday Machines maw from a distance?...

No Kirk has to pilot the damaged Constellation into it as the ONLY way...

It's pretty easy to No Prize away, though - imagine a single line from one of the bridge officers saying that their photorps wouldn't even make it past the huge weapon's navigational deflectors - it had to be something at least as big as a shuttlecraft.

I was yelling this at the TV screen throughout the last fifteen or so minutes of the episode. I'm glad I wasn't the only one.

My daughter *immediately* began fussing about how Michael shouldn't be part of the planning for this reason - beat her old man to the punch, but I feel like it would have come to me a moment or two later.

 

[Delta Vega]

I said several pages back that The Red Angel would have known it was a trap and wouldn't be stupid enough to fall for it.

 

[Ovation]

Sadly, Admiral Ackbar's "IT'S A TRAP!" meme doesn't survive into the 23rd century...

All copies were destroyed by the Eastern Coalition.

Bastards.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I liked the whole episode leading up to Burnham offering herself up to be murdered, essentially playing a game of chicken with the Red Angel. I was a little disappointed by the reveal though, her mother is one of the less interesting choices.

Burnham remembering it was a trap wouldn't have changed anything. She would still have no choice but to walk into it. Just like in Looper, yeah the future version will know what was going on but still have no choice but to turn himself in.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I was a little disappointed by the reveal though, her mother is one of the less interesting choices.

I found most of the other choices to be a bit fannish.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Though seeing a giant green space hand give Control's tentacle army the mighty smack down while Q, whale-probe, Vger's Baby, the Thasians, the Organians, Kevin Uxbridge all line up for a piece of the new upstart would be kind of fun. You don't get promoted to God Tier by eliminating all the fun lower beings to play with. Q certainly wouldn't stand for it.

How much fun that would be to see happen.... Control would have to surrender.

 

[Midquest]

Plus, on the whole trap the RA thing. The reasoning was awful.

Becauae future Burnham will know it is a trap if RA is Burnham. And the nature of said trap. So Burnham should have been excluded from the discussion entirely.

The reasoning makes perfect sense to me. The plan operates not on the surprise factor but the inevitability factor, as the episode explains: future Burnham literally cannot exist if present Burnham dies, so she has to intervene to prevent her own death. It doesn't matter if she knows about the plan or if she doesn't want to be trapped; she really has no choice but to show up to ensure that she survives.

 

[Longinus]

The reasoning makes perfect sense to me. The plan operates not on the surprise factor but the inevitability factor, as the episode explains: future Burnham literally cannot exist if present Burnham dies, so she has to intervene to prevent her own death. It doesn't matter if she knows about the plan or if she doesn't want to be trapped; she really has no choice but to show up to ensure that she survives.

But if the present Burnham dies, then the future Burnham doesn't exist, thus the Red Angel doesn't exist, thus the crew doesn't try to capture the Red Angel by killing the present Burnham...

 

[Alan Roi]

But if the present Burnham dies, then the future Burnham doesn't exist, thus the Red Angel doesn't exist, thus the crew doesn't try to capture the Red Angel by killing the present Burnham...

That very much depends on how this particular form of time travel works, doesn't it? This is perhaps thinking linearly in a case where linear cause and effect doesn't apply.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

I do. I watched the episode. 2nd poor one in a row after possibly the best one of the series.

1) It is totally out of character. So much for logic and Vulcan restraint, eh?

2) It is anti-Star Fleet. Her parents were willing agents of Sec 31 and were killed in the line of duty. As a Star Fleet officer she should Grok that. Not to mention assaulting a superior officer.

But since Burnham hates Sec 31 she cannot handle her parents were agents and reacts childishly and violently. Yes, Lealand should have told her earlier, but that is her only real beef.

Again, boo I say. Another stupid character decision for the cheap/quick benefit of the punch scene. Barf.

Yes, it was stupid of Burnham to react that way.

However, the point of the character is that she has her faults and flaws. Sure, Vulcans preach restraint and logic, but she herself has not completely mastered these things.

Burnham has been shown to us to have her demons, and those demons can occasionally get in the way of her Starfleet career and in the way of being a good Vulcan.

She isn’t perfect, but I don’t think the writers ever claimed that she was.

 

[cooleddie74]

Sadly, Admiral Ackbar's "IT'S A TRAP!" meme doesn't survive into the 23rd century...

IT'S OVER, MICHAEL!!! I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND!!!

 

[gblews]

Well, remember the Angel appeared to young Spock and it told him where Michael was, in time for him to tell his parents and save her.

So (IMO) the 'logic problem' actually is: The Angel could have appeared to either Pike or Spock (out of the area of the trap) and either closed the hangar door herself, or basically communicated a message that said, "Hey, SAVE MICHEAL NOW!...Close the Hangar!" again outside of the generators and 'trap' they set up...

But for reason related to 'plot', this time decided to enter the trap.

But I believe that the way they got around the paradox of Michael's future self having and using knowledge possessed by her past self (in order to avoid being trapped), was by having Spock's clear intent be to kill Burnham -- unless the Red Angel entered the trap (or somehow saved Burnham).

Spock had previously told Burnham that if their plan failed and the RA didn't show up he would actually responsible for killing a Starfleet officer. Without stating it specifically, I believe we were being shown that even though others planned on resuscitating Burnham, Spock's plans didn't include resuscitation UNLESS the Angel showed up.

So all future Burnham would know is 'Spock is going to let me die unless "I" allow "myself" to be trapped'. We saw that when Georgiou and the others tried to come to Burnham's, aid Spock would not let them thereby ensuring that Burnham was GOING to die.

I thought it was kinda clever and subtle.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I found most of the other choices to be a bit fannish.

Yeah maybe better than fanwank but still genre boilerplate.