Has the Red Angel moved the show out of the Prime Universe?

[XCV330]

TOS was too close to the previous decade NOT to look dated in 79. That the ship interiors looks (to me and to others) less dated than TMP may reflect on it being overall a better design, and seemingly so alien now that it DOES look futuristic. At the same time, the TMP Enterprise is still gorgeous. It takes everything good about the TOS Enteprise and bumps it up a bit.

Even if they'd been available, using TOS models and interior sets in 79 on the big screen would have looked absurd. 2001: A Space Odyssey, Star Wars, and (sometimes overlooked now) Close Encounters, had simply changed too much what a film audience expected by then from space ships.

You can see a contemporary film, The Black Hole, where they did refuse to follow entirely in ILM's footsteps. Disney went in-house as always for effects and sets and the result is, well now it would be called retro perhaps, but if you compare it with other sci fi movies of the time, it's as if Disney had another space epic like MGM's Forbidden Planet sitting in the can for 20 years and finally decided to release it before 1980 rolled around. It's a wierd movie, and in its way a beautiful film, and you can love it for that, but it's also a partial answer to a needless what-if, had a TOS movie been made with the full color 60's sets.

 

[Lord Garth]

Ok so based on the latest episode I think that we are either in another universe OR we are seeing how the prime universe was created to begin with. Either way I have a headache.

So are you saying that by the end of the season, Spock will not have known who Burnham is because they never would've met?

 

[Gonzo]

Possibly, we won't know for sure until we see how the season is wrapped up.

We have been told that the show will line up correctly with ToS by the end of the season.

As someone else said above, Spock may not have a sister by the end of the season as they would never have met due to her parents not dying/disappearing.

As for which came first that is definitely chicken Vs egg territory.

 

[Lord Garth]

Hmmm. Where does that leave Discovery in the third season then? A ship displaced from its own reality and taking place in the TOS Universe? Or a ship that's acknowledged as taking place in a different timeline, meaning a Disco Universe? If reality changes, then presumably the Discovery crew will still have all its memories from the first two seasons.

 

[Gonzo]

Hmmm. Where does that leave Discovery in the third season then? A ship displaced from its own reality and taking place in the TOS Universe? Or a ship that's acknowledged as taking place in different the timeline, meaning a Disco Universe?

That is the real question, will we see a time jump to actual ToS era, Pike is supposedly leaving the show at the end of the season, is he leaving to join a Pike/Enterprise show or is something else planned.

Will just have to wait and see.

 

[Longinus]

Im sure whatever the reason that Spock has never mentioned his sister goes deeper than she just insulted him when they were kids.

Yes. He didn't mention her as he didn't think it was relevant.

Of all the things in DIS people demand an explanation for this must be the daftest one.

 

[Gonzo]

The thing that's confusing me is...

Spoiler

I know that they will show how Pike got in his wheelchair. I don't know if it is a flash forward 10 years OR because of this time tinkering it happens 10 years sooner than it should.

The show runners can play it any way they like really, all we can say is that they stated it was PU and that recently we were told that Discovery would line up with ToS by the end of the season which clearly indicates that right now we are not lined up at all.

Many things could change when the AI is defeated, various people/places and events could be reset, changed or deleted altogether.

That's the danger with time travel in general and no one will have any idea of what once was.

 

[StarMan]

Prior to the first Abrams movie, was this ever an issue? No other time travel incidents resulted in an alternate reality offshoot -- it all stayed in-universe. If we followed ST09's logic, then every time travel incident has resulted in an alternate universe and that's too much for my brain to process.

I look at the Abramsverse as a one off. Unless explicitly stated, any timeline changes all take place within the prime universe (in my mind).

At the end of the day, I just want good stories. Tell me a good story and I’ll be a happy camper.

This.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Yes. He didn't mention her as he didn't think it was relevant.

Of all the things in DIS people demand an explanation for this must be the daftest one.

This. It's perfectly in-character for Spock to keep personal stuff to himself unless circumstances force him to divulge details. I don't get the complaint, either.

 

[Jinn]

I never saw the Abramsverse as a different universe, just as a different timeline, along with the prime timeline or the Klingon War timeline from "Yesterday's Enterprise".

 

[Ovation]

If we followed ST09's logic, then every time travel incident has resulted in an alternate universe and that's too much for my brain to process.

I have viewed all Trek time travel in exactly that way for decades now. The only thing that's different in the Kelvinverse stories is that we stay with the "new" line. No one attempts a "fix". All the other "fixes" are just the crew/characters ending up in a highly similar timeline compared to what they've left, so similar as to be unnoticeable absent some very thorough investigation. Of course, I only think about this if I make an effort to do so. Usually, I just go with whatever the story presents as the time travel mechanism at work in the moment--no popular entertainment time travel story ever withstands scrutiny, in any case.

Ultimately, I simply don't care enough to worry about "fixes" or "prime" or "alternate" or etc. As ever, YMMV.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes. He didn't mention her as he didn't think it was relevant.

Of all the things in DIS people demand an explanation for this must be the daftest one.

It's scary when we agree.

 

[Alan Roi]

Im sure whatever the reason that Spock has never mentioned his sister goes deeper than she just insulted him when they were kids.

Yes, he doesn't talk about his family, period.

 

[Lord Garth]

Look at how long we've gone without hearing about Pike's siblings. Or Stamets'. It's amazing. They just don't talk about them. People are too fixated on Spock, so let's take him out of the equation to see how the "(s)he never mentioned them!" argument still works. How about Cornwell's siblings? You'd think she'd bring them up at least once. Geez.

 

[Longinus]

And Kirk forgot his own brother!

 

[cultcross]

I never saw the Abramsverse as a different universe, just as a different timeline, along with the prime timeline or the Klingon War timeline from "Yesterday's Enterprise".

That's essentially how it's presented, that Nero time traveled and changed the past. So if Nemesis is prime (existing as it does in the timeline altered by the effects of Endgame), then it follows that Kelvin movies are also prime, just altered prime.

The wobble which might suggest a parallel universe as well as a time jump (the old down one branch and up another theory of time travel) is Prime Spock (and actually Nero himself) - there's a grandfather paradox there and I'm not sure whether it was ever addressed.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

That's essentially how it's presented, that Nero time traveled and changed the past. So if Nemesis is prime (existing as it does in the timeline altered by the effects of Endgame), then it follows that Kelvin movies are also prime, just altered prime.

The wobble which might suggest a parallel universe as well as a time jump (the old down one branch and up another theory of time travel) is Prime Spock (and actually Nero himself) - there's a grandfather paradox there and I'm not sure whether it was ever addressed.

Yes. Call it what you want -- alternate timeline or alternate universe -- but considering people can travel from one to another (exhibit: Prime Spock, as you pointed out), both alternates are places that distinctly exist in a way that is relative to each other.

For me personally, I call that an "alternate universe", just like the MU is an alternate universe. But YMMV and all that.

 

[Noname Given]

Prior to the first Abrams movie, was this ever an issue? No other time travel incidents resulted in an alternate reality offshoot -- it all stayed in-universe. If we followed ST09's logic, then every time travel incident has resulted in an alternate universe and that's too much for my brain to process.

I look at the Abramsverse as a one off. Unless explicitly stated, any timeline changes all take place within the prime universe (in my mind).



This.

I think you need to go rewatch TNG S7 episode "Parallels" to see just how much of an issue TNG made out of EVERY DECISION made in TNG over the years.

Bottom line: No, stuff like this wasn't just a product of ST09 or JJ Abrams take on Star Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

I think you need to go rewatch TNG S7 episode "Parallels" to see just how much of an issue TNG made out of EVERY DECISION made in TNG over the years.

Bottom line: No, stuff like this wasn't just a product of ST09 or JJ Abrams take on Star Trek.

Precisely so.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And Kirk forgot his own brother!

And I think a couple of nephews.