Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x10 - "The Red Angel"

[F. King Daniel]

I enjoyed the episode a lot, but the final reveal was confusing. The internet tells me it was Burnham's mother? It looked like a mangled/scarred future Georgiou in the glimpse we saw.

Also, the discussion of sexuality was a little odd. Maybe it's because I've grown up with the idea that Trek was beyond sexual labels in the future (I recall the first ever same-sex relationship depicted in a Trek novel, they were asked not to use any defining label) that to hear today's labels applied seemed... off.

 

[Yistaan]

Yes, I've been told.

Picard, also a lead character, got knocked down a few pegs on his show.

Q: Please. Spare me your egotistical musings on your pivotal role in history. Nothing you do here will cause the Federation to collapse or galaxies to explode. To be blunt, you're not that important.

 

[Alan Roi]

And you accuse me of being offensive?

When you are making factual errors or errors that would be fixed by some basic research or paying attention then how is that offensive?

Responding to said advice by telling someone to take a long walk of a short pier when they points out such ignorance or denial of factual evidence is offensive, IMO.

 

[Jadeb]

Yeah, but there's also the entire fate of the galaxy to take into account here. If Burnham's mom changes history so that Michael grows up with her, it might also mean that she both "forgets" all knowledge of the future apocalypse and never successfully completes Project Daedalus.

She could just go back in time and somehow kill Control I suppose. Or maybe the Future Suit itself is what allows for the apocalypse, and just preventing it from existing is enough to neuter Control. But unless she can somehow read the future before making changes, she'd basically be disarming/killing herself in the hope of setting things right.

I think it would be really easy, and almost impossibly tempting, to rationalize, “I’ll be in a better position to stop the apocalypse if I’m not dead.”

Have they established exactly how this AI is going to destroy life, the universe and everything? I haven’t been clear on that.

 

[Alan Roi]

Picard, also a lead character, got knocked down a few pegs on his show.

Q: Please. Spare me your egotistical musings on your pivotal role in history. Nothing you do here will cause the Federation to collapse or galaxies to explode. To be blunt, you're not that important.

Said the omnipotent being who just can't keep himself from bothering Picard, because he's so unimportant .

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

I don't think that holds together. The only way she'd know about the danger was if she'd experienced it in her own past... and if that were the case, she'd also know the crew was standing by to rescue her if the RA didn't show up. Ergo: no need to show up.

I was thinking the same thing as I watched the episode, but I just told myself that I'm sure I could come up with some timey-wimey-wibbly-wobbly explanation, such as maybe each timeline is a separate reality until the red angel makes a specific incursion...something like that.

Honestly, my explanation above needs a lot work to fill in the holes, but I'm sure I can could come up with something in my head that would satisfy my own observation about that (similar to yours) as I watched it.

So yeah, that was a question mark in my mind, but I think it's explainable using ideas take from the myriads of ways Star Trek has always presented alternate timelines/parallel timelines, so it's not a big deal.

 

[Yistaan]

Said the omnipotent being who just can't keep himself from bothering Picard, because he's so unimportant .

You know, that's a good point and I never thought of it that way.

 

[eschaton]

A "time reset" would make some sort of thematic sense, and it meshes well with Kurtzman's statement that "everything will align with canon" by the end of the season. But since Discovery is going to be an ongoing series - and there are plans that MU Georgiou will get her own series later on - it cannot be a hard reset of the main cast. After all, without Michael in the mix, everyone will likely be serving on different ships and not know one another. Even if by some happenstance they were thrown together, the characters would have been hard rebooted, which would be very unsatisfying in the modern era.

It is possible though that Pike and Spock decamp from Discovery before the timeline is "fixed" - with at least the core characters - if not the entire crew - remaining onboard and having knowledge of the past two seasons. There are good in-universe reasons for Pike and Spock to leave. Pike can get his (ultimate) happy ending with Vina. And Spock has his own destiny out there. I am still unsure how they hammer their desires for MU Georgiou into the third season and onward though. Are we supposed to think she just shows up in any universe and is accepted as a Section 31 agent - even if PU Georgiou is still running around?

 

[F. King Daniel]

A "time reset" would make some sort of thematic sense, and it meshes well with Kurtzman's statement that "everything will align with canon" by the end of the season.

Their version of "align with canon" =/= ours. By any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

...Responding to said advice by telling someone to take a long walk of a short pier when they points out such ignorance or denial of factual evidence is offensive, IMO.

DAMNIT! It's "long walk off a short pier?"

All these years I've been saying "take a short walk off a long pier!"

Well, explains the looks I usually get immediately after words …

 

[Amaris]

DAMNIT! It's "long walk off a short pier?"

All these years I've been saying "take a short walk off a long pier!"

Well, explains the looks I usually get immediately after words …

Oh, that's just because it's a Russian inwention.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

A "time reset" would make some sort of thematic sense, and it meshes well with Kurtzman's statement that "everything will align with canon" by the end of the season. But since Discovery is going to be an ongoing series - and there are plans that MU Georgiou will get her own series later on - it cannot be a hard reset of the main cast. After all, without Michael in the mix, everyone will likely be serving on different ships and not know one another. Even if by some happenstance they were thrown together, the characters would have been hard rebooted, which would be very unsatisfying in the modern era.

It is possible though that Pike and Spock decamp from Discovery before the timeline is "fixed" - with at least the core characters - if not the entire crew - remaining onboard and having knowledge of the past two seasons. There are good in-universe reasons for Pike and Spock to leave. Pike can get his (ultimate) happy ending with Vina. And Spock has his own destiny out there. I am still unsure how they hammer their desires for MU Georgiou into the third season and onward though. Are we supposed to think she just shows up in any universe and is accepted as a Section 31 agent - even if PU Georgiou is still running around?

I've always contended that he show already aligns with canon. There is nothing the DSC has presented story-wise or character-wise thus far that is in direct contradiction to TOS.

So I don't see a need for a reset to align it with canon.

As for the crew of the Discovery still being all together on the Discovery -- with Burnham still being the infamous mutineer, Tyler and Voq still being a mash-up, and with PU Georgiou still very dead -- it could all still be that way with Burnham's parents being alive, although I'd rather not need to go through the mental gymnastics to accept it.

Having said that, as I mentioned in a post above, the Mirror universe already does that, so why not the Prime Universe? What I mean is that even though the people growing up in the MU under the Terran Empire would have vastly different childhoods than their PU counterparts, they all miraculously end up together serving on the same ship as their PU counterparts.

If we can accept that premise of the Mirror Universe, we could (grudgingly, in my case) accept that even if Burnham had a different childhood, the future would be basically the same -- except her parents would not be dead.

But as I said, personally I'd rather them not go that route.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

So, Star Trek as we've always known it.

PS. and not just the name, as Sar Trek often does. Read the entries on time crystals. It talks about "repeating time".

I know what time crystals are. They have nothing to do with time travel. They're discussing the structure of the crystal, which is periodic -- repeating -- in space (as normal crystals are) as well as in time (i.e. the structure recurs at some regular interval).

 

[Amaris]

I know what time crystals are. They have nothing to do with time travel.

What about new Folger's Crystals?

 

[Alan Roi]

Having said that, as I mentioned in a post above, the Mirror universe already does that, so why not the Prime Universe. What I mean is that even though the people growing up in the MU under the Terran Empire would have vastly different childhoods, they all miraculously end up together serving on the same ship as their PU counterparts.
.

That's why I am now of the opinion that the MU is a cosmic holodeck MMORPG invented by Squire Trelane's parents (or some similar race) for thier amusement. I mean, if Barclay can use real people in his simulations why can't their race?

 

[Yistaan]

That's why I am now of the opinion that the MU is a cosmic holodeck MMORPG invented by Squire Trelane's parents (or some similar race) for thier amusement. I mean, if Barclay can use real people in his simulations why can't their race?

Why not just do what the videogame franchise "Star Ocean" did and say that the entire universe is an MMORPG created by superior beings?

To say that fans of the game series were not happy is an understatement, to put it mildly.

 

[Alan Roi]

I know what time crystals are. They have nothing to do with time travel. They're discussing the structure of the crystal, which is periodic -- repeating -- in space (as normal crystals are) as well as in time (i.e. the structure recurs at some regular interval).

Neither does slingshotting around stars, but that never stopped Star Trek from abusing that concept either, did it? Or, you know, any scientific concept they want to stretch for that matter. How did you not just give up on the show when the writers of DS9 pulled the concept of 'Chroniton Particles' out of their asses?

 

[Alan Roi]

Why not just do what the videogame franchise "Star Ocean" did and say that the entire universe is an MMORPG created by superior beings?

To say that fans of the game series were not happy is an understatement, to put it mildly.

Because while the Prime Universe does appear to demonstrate cause and effect, the MU appears to specifically create a psychological funhouse mirror environment for the focal point characters who enter it.

 

[Alan Roi]

What about new Folger's Crystals?

"Time is an illusion, time for a cup of Folger's Instant Crystals doubly so"

 

[Yistaan]

Because while the Prime Universe does appear to demonstrate cause and effect, the MU appears to specifically create a psychological funhouse mirror environment for the focal point characters who enter it.

MMORPGs very much have cause and effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrupted_Blood_incident . As technology develops and emergent gameplay increases, it will only become moreso.

Also, I don't see anything that indicates that the Mirror Universe doesn't operate on cause and effect, and Mirror characters who enter the Prime universe likewise probably feel the Prime Universe is for their amusement as well (see how Mirror Georgiou acts).