Supergirl - Season Four

[Kirk Prime]

The plan was to get Congress to repeal the Alien Amnesty Act. They talked about the "drive" to get it repealed and "support" for its repeal. They said (sorry, there's no speaker information in this transcript):

"Tell me Ben Lockwood cannot repeal a congressional act.
No, but he can try and sway the will of the people."

Then Ben Lockwood would be ripped on mercilessly for not understanding the rule of law. It actually wouldn't matter what the issue was--if he was trying to be a bureaucrat repealing an act of Congress, which is essentially the case as you are describing above, it would be a similar reaction to when Alexander Haig said he was in charge when Reagan got shot and Bush was in transit.

Even "swaying the will of the people," wouldn't have any effect unless it was so overwhelming that Congress had to act, which would require a lot more than a 50/50 split in the country. In a split like that, both sides would dig their heels in. Of course, if Congress did repeal the law, then so be it, as it is their purpose.

Agreed, but that is nearly impossible when a single-minded agenda drives stories. The biggest thing holding this immigration plot together is the strength of Sam Witwer's performances (with the exception of this recent episode, where he was more of a caricature), and how a few characters actually speak to the legitimate concerns of the human population.

That's the problem with a single-minded agenda stories. The writers will ignore reality to create a fiction that is either ignorant or as unrealistic as real aliens coming here under the circumstances in this show. You're right that Witwer has been solid this season.

Ah, while that makes sense, the showrunners needed a boogeyman/Trump surrogate for their immigration plot, so her VP had to be the complete opposite when she would never select a running mate standing in such opposition to her core beliefs and/or policies. Once she was ousted, the new president can do whatever he desires (as in the Andrew Johnson example), but in the selection of a running mate, there's no way the Marsdin character would have picked her polar opposite in Baker. But, there's that showrunner boogeyman business again....

Exactly. These writers were so hurt and disgusted that Trump won that they have badly hurt their show. Instead of trying to redo the 2016 election, they should probably work on telling good stories. This story is a thinly veiled attack on Trump, and they have to jump through unrealistic hoops to get it there. This story neither reflects actual events or any actual people--just their perception of them.

Haley, Lena and Alex have all expressed concerns that can stand in as the beliefs of the population. The showrunners will never fully explore that, as it poses too much of a sensible counter to the kind of soapboxing certain characters mount in every episode, which is an utterly unrealistic position to hold after their earth has suffered several alien attacks/invasions. Notice how most of the main characters never offer real solutions to the kinds of problems earth has faced.

While I don't feel this is a good storyline for Supergirl, imagine if they did it right, and instead of demonizing anyone who disagrees with the writers, they addressed the concerns and show that those who are worried about their safety. CW constantly talks about inclusion, but I am willing to bet there are no conservatives on the Supergirl writing staff that get a say and would be allowed to write the opposing view.

If Congress did repeal this Alien Amnesty Act, it would be completely within their right to do so, and the aliens would have to comply. Every nation has a right to choose who they welcome into it, and who they do not.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Then Ben Lockwood would be ripped on mercilessly for not understanding the rule of law. It actually wouldn't matter what the issue was--if he was trying to be a bureaucrat repealing an act of Congress, which is essentially the case as you are describing above, it would be a similar reaction to when Alexander Haig said he was in charge when Reagan got shot and Bush was in transit.

No, I was not describing any such case. I've clearly stated that Supergirl S4E14 "Stand and Deliver" explicitly contradicted your interpretation of what the action was. I even quoted dialog between Kara and J'onn respectively (thank you, @David cgc) that stated that it was an attempt to repeal the Alien Amnesty Act in Congress, backed up by references to other lines of dialog in the episode.

But as to your contention about what would happen to a politician who does not understand how government works, since when has understanding how government works been a qualification to hold even the highest office? As the real world indicates, politicians can tell a myriad of lies, and their supporters will cheer them on, when the lies are what they want to hear. That's one of the things Supergirl is getting right, I mean that's true to life, even though it wouldn't be believable in America even just a few years ago. Sadly, the days when it meant something for politicians to get ripped mercilessly for incompetence are behind us, at least for now.

It's actually an important plot point that Lockwood is exaggerating publicly what he has the power to do. Even Supergirl is confused.

Even "swaying the will of the people," wouldn't have any effect unless it was so overwhelming that Congress had to act, which would require a lot more than a 50/50 split in the country. In a split like that, both sides would dig their heels in. Of course, if Congress did repeal the law, then so be it, as it is their purpose.

This also needs special comment. This isn't how Congress works. It's true that Congress will act in accordance with popular opinion when that opinion is shared broadly enough to affect the electability of enough Representatives and Senators. But short of that, Congress acts according to its own agenda, and they don't just sit around and do nothing (unless that is in their interest). They have power, and they totally exercise it. We've delegated that privilege to them.

The reason I feel this needs special comment is because you implied that Congress would not act unless enough people got swayed one way or another. That's just not the way it works. Congress will act against the will of the people—and has so acted in recent memory—to pass unpopular legislation, if they don't pay too steep a penalty at the ballot box, provided that their actions advance an agenda that they themselves support.

 

[Kirk Prime]

No, I was not describing any such case. I've clearly stated that Supergirl S4E14 "Stand and Deliver" explicitly contradicted your interpretation of what the action was. I even quoted dialog between Kara and J'onn respectively (thank you, @David cgc) that stated that it was an attempt to repeal the Alien Amnesty Act in Congress, backed up by references to other lines of dialog in the episode.

I got that, but in this episode, the talk was about the President doing this. I responded to what you quoted as well.

But as to your contention about what would happen to a politician who does not understand how government works, since when has understanding how government works been a qualification to hold even the highest office?

AOC is the most clueless member ever elected to public office, so I guess that proves your point, however, she tends to get ripped a lot for it. You're right that people have power, delegated to them, but in the Supergirl scenario, you would be having an underling of the President usurping the power of Congress, which can't be done.

This also needs special comment. This isn't how Congress works. It's true that Congress will act in accordance with popular opinion when that opinion is shared broadly enough to affect the electability of enough Representatives and Senators. But short of that, Congress acts according to its own agenda, and they don't just sit around and do nothing (unless that is in their interest). They have power, and they totally exercise it. We've delegated that privilege to them.

I never said Congress NEEDED the people to sway them, but the quote you cited did talk about that. Congress is filled with politicians who will do what the people want to stay in office. Get an issue that say has 75% support across both aisles, and Congress will likely act in force. You clearly see that in the quote above.

We don't know the polls on Earth 38 and where the people stand. We don't know the makeup of their Congress. If this is a divisive issue, it could be very hard to make a major law change. Plus, when would the Alien Amnesty Act have gone into effect? Couldn't have been that long, and if they were writing the show realistically, if the country is divided, it is very difficult to change the status quo.

Of course Congress will act a certain way even without the people behind them. That's how Obamacare got forced on the population. But something like this would probably require some major popular support before a legislative body would take it on and make a change.

Lockwood would have to overwhelmingly win the hearts and minds of the people AND the press.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Some Super-Points:

* Ben Lockwood is using his position as head of Alien Affairs (they said it's a Secretary position) to campaign for Congress to repeal the Alien Amnesty Act. Given it was made by an illegal President but passed by Congress, it's a legal law but one they may felt has grounds to be appealed as an action of a foreign national.

* Lockwood seems to be campaigning so two years into the Presidency, when the House changes, he'll be able to force a repeal--hes' campaigning to the public.

* President Baker is attempting to ride the tide of public opinion. President Marsdin is someone who was very popular so Baker rode her coattails. Now that public opinion seems to be turning, he's attempting to appeal to the new racist sentiment like Bill Clinton did with his "law and order" campaign that severely impacted African American communities.

He's not an ideologue but an opportunist and coward.

* Baker folded like a deck of cards in supporting the Repeal because he doesn't believe in Lockwood any more than he does in Supergirl.

* I also get the impression Baker is not very good at his job and like Dan Quayle and some have suggested Joe Biden, was put in the VP's position as a political graveyard. Marsdin's ressignation resulted in a terrible figure rising to power that misses he's catering to extremists over his own party,

* Baker has several Democratic stereotypes akin to Ted Kennedy and other figures in his speech like when he stated how much he hated aliens but would fight for their rights to Supergirl. He's very much of the limousine liberal stereotype that Bloomberg, Clinton, Kennedy, and Biden have all been accused of being.

* As a former Republican and conservative, I like to think no one in their right mind on the Right would believe Ben Lockwood would represent conservative values. He's a KKK-Neo Nazi analogue and a domestic terrorist. None of his points are anything but the enemy of both sides of America. Dude tried to murder children.

* I hate that Hayley is being treated as a moderate. She tortured and imprisoned alien children for decades--screw her.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I got that, but in this episode, the talk was about the President doing this. I responded to what you quoted as well.



AOC is the most clueless member ever elected to public office, so I guess that proves your point, however, she tends to get ripped a lot for it. You're right that people have power, delegated to them, but in the Supergirl scenario, you would be having an underling of the President usurping the power of Congress, which can't be done.



I never said Congress NEEDED the people to sway them, but the quote you cited did talk about that. Congress is filled with politicians who will do what the people want to stay in office. Get an issue that say has 75% support across both aisles, and Congress will likely act in force. You clearly see that in the quote above.

We don't know the polls on Earth 38 and where the people stand. We don't know the makeup of their Congress. If this is a divisive issue, it could be very hard to make a major law change. Plus, when would the Alien Amnesty Act have gone into effect? Couldn't have been that long, and if they were writing the show realistically, if the country is divided, it is very difficult to change the status quo.

Of course Congress will act a certain way even without the people behind them. That's how Obamacare got forced on the population. But something like this would probably require some major popular support before a legislative body would take it on and make a change.

Lockwood would have to overwhelmingly win the hearts and minds of the people AND the press.

Well, you know, there are facts, and there are alternative facts, amiright?

 

[Kirk Prime]

* Ben Lockwood is using his position as head of Alien Affairs (they said it's a Secretary position) to campaign for Congress to repeal the Alien Amnesty Act. Given it was made by an illegal President but passed by Congress, it's a legal law but one they may felt has grounds to be appealed as an action of a foreign national.

I love this idea! Now this is something they should absolutely explore. And it's one that has never been encountered in US history. A good writing staff would research this with legal scholars. Any act signed by Marsdin should be challenged, and it is entirely possible that any law passed by Congress in her tenure would be unconstitutional. Every single one. So the next question would then be how long was Marsdin president? Is it within the first two years? If say, she was elected in 2016, and this show is taking place in 2018, after she resigned, one could argue that the only thing invalid is the President's signature.

So all that would be needed would be Baker's signature. If the show takes place in 2019, you have a new Congress, and I would think they would have to pass it all again.

THIS is what they should do. They should have Lockwood challenge the Alien Amnesty Act as illegally signed, and force Congress to take the issue up from scratch. Would it pass again? And would Baker sign it?

He's not an ideologue but an opportunist and coward.

Clinton did perfect this form of governing, which is why he remained popular in the polls despite all he did. However, I have not seen Baker following the Clintonian model.

I also get the impression Baker is not very good at his job and like Dan Quayle and some have suggested Joe Biden, was put in the VP's position as a political graveyard. Marsdin's ressignation resulted in a terrible figure rising to power that misses he's catering to extremists over his own party,

But wouldn't the extremists in Baker's party be on the side of the aliens? Baker should have given Manchester Black the power he gave Lockwood, based on which side of the aisle he should be on.

As a former Republican and conservative, I like to think no one in their right mind on the Right would believe Ben Lockwood would represent conservative values. He's a KKK-Neo Nazi analogue and a domestic terrorist. None of his points are anything but the enemy of both sides of America. Dude tried to murder children.

As a CURRENT Republican and conservative, I agree with you. But this is how the writers see conservatives.

 

[Awesome Possum]

It's how conservatives are behaving now. It's not the writer's fault that they went nuts. Maybe as a conservative voter you be a little pickier about the people you elect instead of blaming outsiders.

 

[Kirk Prime]

It's how conservatives are behaving now. It's not the writer's fault that they went nuts. Maybe as a conservative voter you be a little pickier about the people you elect instead of blaming outsiders.

That is completely wrong. Literally, like every single word is wrong, and it's that kind of attitude that has this country divided.

We aren't the ones who have gone nuts.

 

[Christopher]

It's how conservatives are behaving now. It's not the writer's fault that they went nuts.

I don't think the people currently dominating the GOP can even be called conservatives anymore. Conservative means wanting to preserve the existing status quo or make measured, limited changes, and to avoid unnecessary or reckless spending and/or policies. The madness going on now bears no resemblance to that. And it's that madness, the renewed rise of hate and extremism, that this season is commenting on. We're well past the point where the political debate in this country is about liberal vs. conservative.

 

[Awesome Possum]

That is completely wrong. Literally, like every single word is wrong, and it's that kind of attitude that has this country divided.

We aren't the ones who have gone nuts.

You elected a reality tv star who is sexist, racist and bigoted. He constantly finds ways to divide people and cause harm to the citizens of the country. People like me have been called a burden for wanting to serve in the military, something he was too cowardly to do.

So forgive me for calling that nuts. If you can't see that nothing is going to get better.

 

[Marc]

* Ben Lockwood is using his position as head of Alien Affairs (they said it's a Secretary position) to campaign for Congress to repeal the Alien Amnesty Act. Given it was made by an illegal President but passed by Congress, it's a legal law but one they may felt has grounds to be appealed as an action of a foreign national.

It maybe have been passed by the congress but it was signed in to law by a person who wasn't ellegible to serve as President. At the very less I could see any bill being passed into law during her administration as being subject to court challenges if not automatically invalid.

 

[Awesome Possum]

It maybe have been passed by the congress but it was signed in to law by a person who wasn't ellegible to serve as President. At the very less I could see any bill being passed into law during her administration as being subject to court challenges if not automatically invalid.

It would take years to go through the legal process. It isn't something we really dealt with before.

 

[Finn]

That is completely wrong. Literally, like every single word is wrong, and it's that kind of attitude that has this country divided.

We aren't the ones who have gone nuts.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I get the impression that Baker is attempting to appeal to all the outrage regarding Marsden lying to the American people and the sense of betrayal that caused people who were previously pro-alien (i.e. a lot of the DEO) staff to do a 180. The sense of being lied to by a public figure you trusted and believed in on such a matter caused a massive swing in anti-alien sentiment.

But I think Baker has misread the crowd because while there's probably a 90% poll, "Do you disapprove of President Marsden?" The problem was that was due to the fact she committed election fraud on a massive level -- but all of her policies were ones that people broadly agreed with despite the alien invasions (which were repulsed by Alien Americans anyway).

He's basically sided with Cadmus and the extremists against his own party. It's a colossal political fuck up but not an unprecedented one. Nixon would have handily won his re-election if not for the Watergate break-in.The outrage over the alien President is something that will fade, particularly with Supergirl and Jonn Jones doing all the acts they can as well as the fact the Children of Liberty are domestic terrorists.

All James Olsen really needed was to take the picture of the Children of Liberty beating a human-looking child and we already see the tide turning in public opinion back to sympathy for the aliens. Basically, Baker has greatly overstepped his position and put David Duke in charge of the Office of Minority Affairs. Baker will probably try to pull back Lockwood but you can't control someone like Lockwood and he'll end up trying to do something genocidal with government resources.

Baker thinks he hired a charismatic Fox News commentator when he actually hired Timothy McVeigh.

At least that's how I read it.

 

[Christopher]

The problem was that was due to the fact she committed election fraud on a massive level

"Massive?" All she did was lie about not being born in the US. That's a mere technicality -- it violates the letter of the Constitution, but not in any really important or hurtful way like treason or violation of the emoluments clause. Would it be "massive" fraud if a 33-year-old pretended to be 2 years earlier to run for President?

 

[Charles Phipps]

"Massive?" All she did was lie about not being born in the US. That's a mere technicality -- it violates the letter of the Constitution, but not in any really important or hurtful way like treason or violation of the emoluments clause. Would it be "massive" fraud if a 33-year-old pretended to be 2 years earlier to run for President?

Well, it implies lying under oath at the start. Then there's the fact that if you lie about your nation of birth then that questions how much else you have lied about. If Bill Clinton turned out to be a Russian man named Edgar Tolstoy then you have to suddenly ask what you knew about them. President Marsdin is a very sympathetic figure and everything indicates she's basically Supergirl in terms of personality but she's a Durlan rather than a Kryptonian and a politician rather than a superhero.

We know shapeshifters can do things for the greater good (Hank/Jonn) but in this case, it was a very big mistake on her part and the reprocussions of her actions are responsible for the sudden uptake in alien-human violence.

 

[Christopher]

Well, it implies lying under oath at the start. Then there's the fact that if you lie about your nation of birth then that questions how much else you have lied about.

Yeah, but that's suspicion, not actuality. The only thing she actually lied about was basically irrelevant, a mere technicality; calling it "massive election fraud" sounds like the histrionics of her political enemies, not an objective assessment of her specific actions.

President Marsdin is a very sympathetic figure and everything indicates she's basically Supergirl in terms of personality

Don't you mean Wonder Woman?

We know shapeshifters can do things for the greater good (Hank/Jonn) but in this case, it was a very big mistake on her part and the reprocussions of her actions are responsible for the sudden uptake in alien-human violence.

No, three consecutive series-finale alien invasions are responsible for the uptick in alien-human violence. She never would've been outed in the first place if Mercy Graves's already-active anti-alien hate group hadn't exposed her. Her outing just added more fuel to a fire that was already burning. She made a mistake, yes, but it wasn't malicious, so it's unfair to blame her for the hate stirred up by others who had genuine malicious intent.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The only thing she actually lied about was basically irrelevant, a mere technicality

No.

For the President, upholding the Constitution is not a mere technicality. The President doesn't get to pick and choose which parts of the Constitution to uphold. Talk about slippery slopes, that's a doozy.

 

[David cgc]

Nixon would have handily won his re-election if not for the Watergate break-in.The outrage over the alien President is something that will fade, particularly with Supergirl and Jonn Jones doing all the acts they can as well as the fact the Children of Liberty are domestic terrorists.

Nixon did win re-election handily. McGovern only got one state, plus DC.

No.

For the President, upholding the Constitution is not a mere technicality. The President doesn't get to pick and choose which parts of the Constitution to uphold. Talk about slippery slopes, that's a doozy.

Signing statements, where a President notes that certain aspects of a law he's signing are, in his view, unconstitutional and will not be enforced. The post-RFK rules against nepotism in presidential administrations that are being made a mockery of. We've been on this slippery slope for a very long time, and as long as they have the same letter after their name as at least one house of Congress, the president can do whatever they want.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

We know shapeshifters can do things for the greater good (Hank/Jonn) but in this case, it was a very big mistake on her part and the reprocussions of her actions are responsible for the sudden uptake in alien-human violence.

Her being an alien who lied about her true status could only bee seen as infiltration, except to those who do not see a problem with deception of that gargantuan level if it fits certain sociopolitical worldviews. Of course, as mentioned before, the alien invasions/attacks justified humankind's reactions to aliens migrating to earth with no true way to know the motives of any, or their perception of humanity.

No.

For the President, upholding the Constitution is not a mere technicality. The President doesn't get to pick and choose which parts of the Constitution to uphold. Talk about slippery slopes, that's a doozy.

Agreed. How anyone can spin that as a technicality....