Supergirl - Season Four

[CorporalCaptain]

We've been on this slippery slope for a very long time

I'm aware. It's not for nothing that the Founding Fathers did the best that they could to put checks on executive authority. My view is that when Congress does not intervene they are indicating tacit approval, and that can be given for partisan reasons, as you indicate in your post.

 

[JD]

I'm sorry, but it's a bit ridiculous to start throwing a fit when this show isn't completely accurate in how it deals with the government, this is a comic book superhero action show, not The West Wing.

 

[Awesome Possum]

The show is more about superheroics, sisters and personal drama.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm sorry, but it's a bit ridiculous to start throwing a fit when this show isn't completely accurate in how it deals with the government, this is a comic book superhero action show, not The West Wing.

With respect to the present episode, it wasn't even inaccurate in the way originally claimed.

 

[Christopher]

The show is more about superheroics, sisters and personal drama.

Sure, but it's also the most overtly political show in the Arrowverse (not counting Black Lightning).

 

[Awesome Possum]

Sure, but it's also the most overtly political show in the Arrowverse (not counting Black Lightning).

It’s more in the arc than anything else though. Most of the episodes just focus on Kara and her friends going through some personal struggles which they get through using friendship and powers. That’s why she pairs so well with Barry, the Flash is the same thing.

 

[Jayson1]

"Massive?" All she did was lie about not being born in the US. That's a mere technicality -- it violates the letter of the Constitution, but not in any really important or hurtful way like treason or violation of the emoluments clause. Would it be "massive" fraud if a 33-year-old pretended to be 2 years earlier to run for President?

For many jobs it wouldn't be that much of a big deal. But I think "massive" kind of makes sense when the Presidency is at stake. That's a whole different thing than someone lying on their resume to get a job working at a bank or some other company. Everything takes a extra level of importance at that level.

Jason

 

[Charles Phipps]

Note, I actually like the idea that Supergirl doesn't see it as a big deal because she uses the analog of a secret identity and it's something she figures people should get a pass on. Also, being a refugee and immigrant herself, that she believes it's not a big deal.

It's part of why she was completely blinded by the backlash while Jonn and Alex weren't.

Mind you, I actually like Season 4 the most because I think Supergirl vs. Neo-Nazis is a very classic and powerful work. Superman fought the KKK in real life (thanks to his radio show using them as villains) and it had an actual affect on their numbers.

I also see nothing contradictory about President Marsdin making a HUGE error and supporting all of her positions in-universe as well as hating Ben Lockwood as the worst of humanity. Funny fact, there was a Legion of Superheroes villain called Terra Man who who was basically a 31st century version of Ben.

 

[Christopher]

For many jobs it wouldn't be that much of a big deal. But I think "massive" kind of makes sense when the Presidency is at stake. That's a whole different thing than someone lying on their resume to get a job working at a bank or some other company. Everything takes a extra level of importance at that level.

Yeah, but just because the writers of the Constitution made being native-born a requirement when they wrote the thing a couple of centuries ago doesn't mean it's really an important requirement. Frankly, it seems pretty stupid to me. This is a nation of immigrants. Immigrants come here because they believe in America and want to be part of it, and they work hard to earn their citizenship. They're generally better-informed about civics and government than natural-born citizens are, and I think they're more likely to vote and be politically active, because they don't take being American for granted. So why shouldn't they be eligible for the Presidency? Rules that exclude immigrants have almost always been justifications for bigotry and intolerance. They never benefit the country, only undermine it. So I don't see this one as any different.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yeah, but just because the writers of the Constitution made being native-born a requirement when they wrote the thing a couple of centuries ago doesn't mean it's really an important requirement. Frankly, it seems pretty stupid to me. This is a nation of immigrants. Immigrants come here because they believe in America and want to be part of it, and they work hard to earn their citizenship. They're generally better-informed about civics and government than natural-born citizens are, and I think they're more likely to vote and be politically active, because they don't take being American for granted. So why shouldn't they be eligible for the Presidency? Rules that exclude immigrants have almost always been justifications for bigotry and intolerance. They never benefit the country, only undermine it. So I don't see this one as any different.

That is a perfectly cromulent argument for amending the Constitution so that natural-born citizenship is no longer required to be President. What it isn't is any sort of reasonable argument for the President to disregard the requirement while it's still a part of the Constitution.

 

[Charles Phipps]

On my end, it's not the fact that she was an alien that bothered me. I wish she'd been born in Iowa to two Durlan parents

It's the perjury.

A person who lies about one thing under oath will probably lie about many others.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Natural born might mean alien, clone or foreigner, but my bet is that there was this one fuck Tom Jefferson hated who came out of his mum via by c-section, and Tom was microexcluding him from a leadership position.

 

[Christopher]

On my end, it's not the fact that she was an alien that bothered me. I wish she'd been born in Iowa to two Durlan parents

It's the perjury.

A person who lies about one thing under oath will probably lie about many others.

Bull. That kind of blanket generalization is illegitimate and lazy. Marsdin wasn't just "a person" -- she was a refugee from conquest, living on a planet where the government/DEO at the time would have arrested, imprisoned, and possibly experimented on or killed her if they had known who she really was. There are times when even the most scrupulously honest person would have to lie if it was the only way to ensure their life and freedom. Do you think the people who hid Anne Frank in their attic lied about it because they were habitually dishonest? Do you think every gay or lesbian or trans person who kept their true identity secret for fear of being beaten to death were constantly lying about everything? Some lies are defensible. Some lies are unavoidable. And it's the height of ignorant privilege to get self-righteous about the lies people have to tell to stay alive and free in societies that don't tolerate their existence.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Bull. That kind of blanket generalization is illegitimate and lazy. Marsdin wasn't just "a person" -- she was a refugee from conquest, living on a planet where the government/DEO at the time would have arrested, imprisoned, and possibly experimented on or killed her if they had known who she really was. There are times when even the most scrupulously honest person would have to lie if it was the only way to ensure their life and freedom. Do you think the people who hid Anne Frank in their attic lied about it because they were habitually dishonest? Do you think every gay or lesbian or trans person who kept their true identity secret for fear of being beaten to death were constantly lying about everything? Some lies are defensible. Some lies are unavoidable. And it's the height of ignorant privilege to get self-righteous about the lies people have to tell to stay alive and free in societies that don't tolerate their existence.

I should point out you're stating that it is privilege to hold a politician accountable for lying to the general public. Hiding her identity to protect herself is fine and entirely justified. However, I'm not going to state that politicians should be allowed to lie about their backgrounds because it gets them elected. That is the crassest form of political opportunism.

Bruce Wayne should not be President unless he states he's Batman.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Hiding her identity to protect herself is fine and entirely justified. However, I'm not going to state that politicians should be allowed to lie about their backgrounds because it gets them elected. That is the crassest form of political opportunism.

Its also selective ethics only "justified" when it supports the showrunner's anything-but-realistic view of the immigration issue.

 

[Christopher]

I should point out you're stating that it is privilege to hold a politician accountable for lying to the general public.

No, I'm stating it's privilege to assume that the only possible reason for someone to lie is that they're intrinsically dishonest, to be insensitive to the fact that even good and honest people don't always have the freedom to be honest about who they are. Even if your basic point were valid, that specific argument is pure privileged crap.

However, I'm not going to state that politicians should be allowed to lie about their backgrounds because it gets them elected. That is the crassest form of political opportunism.

Of course it is true that one should not lie to hold public office. But your extreme, demonizing rhetoric about Marsdin's violation of a mere technicality is a huge overreaction and grossly unfair. Especially when you falsely blame her for creating the hate that was already roiling well before she was exposed and was the reason for her exposure.

Yes, technically, Marsdin should've known that she was technically disqualified from the Presidency and should never have run. But the other aliens on Earth might never have been given amnesty and the freedom to be honest about who they were if not for her advocacy. Sometimes a little insurgency is forgivable when it brings about a greater good. What is legal and what is right are not automatically the same. So the tone of moral outrage you affect against Marsdin for a wrong far more trivial than those being committed on a daily basis by the current administration is misplaced and bizarrely disproportionate. And it's unpleasantly reminiscent of the arguments of the Birthers in the Obama years.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Its also selective ethics only "justified" when it supports the showrunner's anything-but-realistic view of the immigration issue.

I *DO* support the show's view on immigration and would if I was a resident of Metropolis or Gotham City. However, that doesn't mean that I think it justifies President Marsdin's acts.

I support her like I support Supergirl despite her die-hard hatred of Kryptonite even when so many invaders turn out to be Kryptonian.

So the tone of moral outrage you affect against Marsdin for a wrong far more trivial than those being committed on a daily basis by the current administration is misplaced and bizarrely disproportionate. And it's unpleasantly reminiscent of the arguments of the Birthers in the Obama years.

There's kind of an irony here because as the dyed in the wool liberal I've become, I'm all for impeaching Trump for all the perjury he's committed (that I believe because he's committed--because I don't want to get into another political argument on this page). Perjury I consider to be a very serious crime and worth removing someone from office over.

Lie all the live long day in your daily life but tell the truth under oath.

And the thing is that the Birther argument is a weird one to invoke because it was driven by racism and lies (as well as gross stupidity). In the case of Marsdin, it's TRUE that she's not an American citizen and lied about their origins. Mind you, the Birther argument also irritates me because it ignores basic facts like the fact he'd be a citizen anyway because his mother is a US citizen.

As for the racism being inflamed by Marsdin's reveal, I thought that was implicit in the show.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Fascinating how the highest office in the land--one that's central to the security of the nation can so easily be argued in favor of being subverted.

 

[Christopher]

However, that doesn't mean that I think it justifies President Marsdin's acts.

I never said her actions were justified. I said your condemnation of her actions is excessive and exaggerated.

There's kind of an irony here because as the dyed in the wool liberal I've become, I'm all for impeaching Trump for all the perjury he's committed (that I believe because he's committed--because I don't want to get into another political argument on this page). Perjury I consider to be a very serious crime and worth removing someone from office over.

Hell, yeah, because it's perjury about big stuff that actually matters. There are far, far huger wrongs than the single one that Marsdin committed.

And the thing is that the Birther argument is a weird one to invoke because it was driven by racism and lies (as well as gross stupidity). In the case of Marsdin, it's TRUE that she's not an American citizen and lied about their origins.

It's not about whether it's true, it's about whether it matters that someone wasn't born here. I don't think it does. Yeah, the Constitution says it does, but it also says a slave is 3/5 of a human, so it's a fallible document.

As for the racism being inflamed by Marsdin's reveal, I thought that was implicit in the show.

Only that, as I said, it added fuel to the fires of hatred that already existed, which is what Mercy and Otis Graves intended when they exposed her. She didn't cause the problem, and blaming her exclusively and erasing the pre-existing hate groups from the equation is dishonest.

 

[JD]

Marsdin lying about not only not being American, but not even being human is a lot more than just a technicality.