Supergirl - Season Four

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Kai "the spy", Jul 17, 2018.

  1. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The human matter doesn't matter on the show.

    If she's a Durlan from Iowa, go for it.

    :)

    Swamp Thing wants to run for President on an environmental platform? Let him.
     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    It's something that, no matter what the framers of the Constitution put in for whatever reason centuries ago, should be irrelevant to whether someone is a good person or a good American. So yeah, it's true that she shouldn't have lied about her origins and run for president, but it's a far, far smaller offense than, say, winning the presidency by lying about collusion with Russia or bribing porn stars or ordering the Watergate break-in or the like.


    And I think we're forgetting that we're talking about Supergirl, a show whose main character is an illegal alien who lies to the government about her true identity every time she files a tax form or renews her driver's license. It seems oddly incongruous to shrug at Kara doing that but rake Marsdin over the coals for doing the same thing. And even more incongruous to say "Someone who lies about one thing is probably a liar about many things" when talking about superhero fiction, a genre that is specifically about fundamentally good, honest people who nonetheless lie about their identity to everyone around them.
     
  3. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well said.

    Its deception of the highest order to secure the most powerful office/title in the world, and she did not care about the rules and laws created by the people of the birth world of humans. That is no technicality by any legal or ethical stretch (to the point of snapping) of the imagination.
     
  4. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It means that she's willing to lie under oath. To fake records. To engage in criminal conspiracy to see herself in the position of doing "good." I know President Trump has changed our views about how much we can accept lying from our politicians but I'm one of those people who think Obstruction and Pejury are worth removing a politician from office for.

    I give the showrunners enough credit to believe that they are willing to put a lot of Kara's decisions under the microscope. Part of why Arrow and The Flash are so entertaining is that we often have a lot of traditional superhero tropes re-examined. The constant lying that Arrow does is a source of a good 50% of his pain as well as actual deaths on the show. The whole unwillingness to tell Iris about Barry being the Flash is shown to not only hurt Barry's relationships but also is infantalizing with Iris.

    One of the best episodes in the previous season was Guardian deciding to reveal himself to the world to be an inspiration to Black and mortal Americans. The fact they've dialed down the Guardian plotline to make James just an editor and a "boxed crook" is my only complaint this season. As a public superhero, we should be glad he's chosen to take that route.

    Also, Kara's continued lying to Lena Luthor about her identity has caused her no end of trouble and may have set up the problems we're going to run to with her superior identity.

    In short, generally the show does show Kara's lying as wrong and counter-intuitive.
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    But it does not condemn her as a fundamentally bad and untrustworthy person or blame her for the actions of her enemies, like you're bizarrely trying to do with Marsdin.
     
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  6. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I might if Kara Danvers ran for President.

    I think part of this is I'm reminded of the "Superman renounces his American citizenship" plotline as that was meant to reassure people that he was for everybody--except, he didn't renounce Clark Kent's citizenship and thus it was just him lying to the public.

    But if it's any consolsation, I think the Children of Liberty are not Marsdin's fault. They were awful people before the election and Ben Lockwood's episode did nothing to make me think he was a good person gone wrong. He was a raging pile of issues bubbling under the surface that exploded because of some bad stuff that happened to him.
     
  7. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'd like to believe that Kara knows that it would be wrong for her to run for President in any capacity because she knows it would be unconstitutional.
     
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  8. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think Marsdin is a bad person, and she really did seem like she probably was a pretty good President, but that doesn't change the fact that she lied about where she was from. I definitely agree it's not anywhere near the level of the horrible stuff Trump has done, but it's still pretty bad.

    Supergirl is not the president, or running for president. When you are in a position like that the rules are different.
     
  9. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    CP, you must remember that to some with a single-minded agenda, lies, deception and breaking laws are justified, just as long as it pushes said agenda on the population, yet this is the same group who (in typically hypocritical fashion) scream when the person or party they despise engages in the same behavior.

    You are correct about perjury and obstruction, but for anyone who thinks Trump's lies are some aberration in the history of American presidents, then I will go ahead and say they are the worst kind of ideologues who only paint Trump as the boogeyman thanks to a couple of things:
    • not living/participating in U.S. political history as it happened
    • certainly never studied it from sources that presented everything not filtered through a hopelessly na├»ve and one-sided lens
    That is the only way one can constantly bang on that worn out drum.


    However, that's only to create a conflict that will always end with Supergirl being vindicated. The showrunners will never have their character's actions lead to consequences that she has to pay for going forward because they have an agenda to push, which--if any of her actions were committed in real life--she would not be anything less than considered a threat to the U.S. that needs to be contained or prosecuted by any legal means necessary.

    The James character was never used in any decent way since the pilot, as he rarely exhibited any behavior that speaks to his unique experience (racially) in the professional world, or as a person. Oh, they had one episode where he tells a story about his past, but in the grand scheme of things, it was showrunners playing "A Very Special Episode" instead of having James act like one who--in the face of his trying to be a role-model and/or "perfect" image that does not play into society's misperceptions/lies about him--lives in the reality of race informing his relationships and career, even when working in a left wing environment (which by no means is free of racial division/mischaracterizations).

    On this point, she does not need to reveal her true identity to Lena for any reason, but at the same time, SG walking around in Pollyanna Land had her buddy-up with one she should have never brought into her inner circle. Unlike Peter Parker, who learned (by being attacked/kidnapped) that his mortal enemy also happened to be his best friend's father,

    But there will never be long term or permanent consequences for SG's bad decisions and/or lies. This is the best season of the series by far, but all of the issues discussed over the past few pages speaks to a problem of the show's hero being in the wrong, but there's no dramatic payoff with certain sub-plots because--again--no long term consequences.
     
  10. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    Sorry, in the real world that WOULD be massive. And as a result, she would just be Impeached and removed, it would involve a long prison sentence. It's a complete flaunting of an article in the U.S. Constitution itself; along with perjury and lying on a Federal government document - and a violation of NUMEROUS Campaign laws and regulations.

    Such a thing is hardly "Just a technicality".
     
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  11. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    To get off this subject, I wonder if the parallels between Ben Lockwood and Hitler's appointments are deliberate or a lucky accident. Ben was imprisoned for his very real crimes and then given a highly placed government job as a way to contain him as well as take advantage of his popularity with the lunatic fringe in Germany.

    Mind you, I don't think they're going to do a episode where they time travel to the future where he's President and America has become a fascist hellhole (they already did that on Arrow) but that would have been interesting.

    Are there any fans who actually believe Lena is going to turn evil at this point? That would be dumb.

    Very dumb.
     
  12. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    If it were most anything else in the Constitution, if it were something that actually mattered beyond simple legalism, I'd agree with you. But I can't see any good reason to disqualify someone for the office based on not being born here, and 9 or more years of Birther attacks on President Obama have deeply soured me on any attempt to use national origin as an excuse for attacking a US President's legitimacy.

    And since we're talking about a freaking fictional character, after all, is it that hard to be forgiving? It's not like she's actually our President, so there's no reason to feel betrayed by her imaginary actions.
     
  13. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    She's not a heroine, either, and has more-than-questionable irons in the fire. In order for Lena to have a real crisis of conscience, it will take more than being manipulated by Lex (whether James is a victim of that or not), or another external threat, and own up to her corruption. However, if Lena suddenly becomes a full-on heroine (there's a hint that its possible with Alex confiding in her), it erases the edge of her relationships with everyone else, pretty much making her a pointless character.
     
  14. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I completely agree, except that it's flouting.

    Although, it might be handled by invocation of the 25th Amendment (Section 4), as that could happen much more quickly, and for all practical purposes immediately.

    edited to add - I have to wonder also whether there would be a third option available, though one with no precedent that I'm aware of. I'd imagine that people might have standing to sue in federal court to have the President removed from office by court order on the grounds of Constitutional ineligibility. Assuming they did, I'd think that appeals would send the case to the Supreme Court, who would decide. That might even happen rather quickly, more quickly than impeachment and trial in the Senate, given the possibility of fewer partisan dynamics coupled with a perceived urgency of the situation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019 at 4:32 PM
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Ice on Earth 38 must feel like a bunch of Cucks every time Superman gets the presidential medal of freedom.
     
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  16. theenglish

    theenglish Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Interesting that you mention Trump in that. If that plot line had happened a couple of years later, one would be hard pressed to deny an intentional analogy to the real world.
     
  17. theenglish

    theenglish Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I doubt that she will become evil, but she certainly has the potential to become an engaging and interesting antagonist if her goals come into conflict with Supergirl and the Super Friends.
     
  18. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I see Marsdin as a good person who did a bad thing. But good intentions aren't enough to just be excused in such a important job as being President of the United States. The average person doesn't really know who she is so it makes sense that many of them are not going to trust someone who lied like that. There is no reason for them to trust that her intentions are noble because how could they know? All people know is the facts and the facts were that she broke the law. Something that is not easy to just give someone the benefit of doubt on when it comes to that job.

    Jason
     
  19. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I see it as a way to protect against a president having potential split loyalties. I'm not one of those people who hate foreigners, but in this case we are talking about the President, so I could see being extra cautious when it comes to this kind of thing.
     
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  20. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Precisely. She was a good president who did one dishonest thing. That makes her flawed, but it doesn't make her a monster, and it doesn't make it her fault that hate groups are on the rise.

    I have not, at any point, been talking about the reactions of the imaginary people in the show. I've been talking about the reactions of us, the TV viewers here in the real world. We do know that her intentions are noble, that she's an essentially good person who made just one serious error in judgment, so there's no reason for us to damn her as some kind of pathological liar or criminal mastermind when we know better.


    I don't think that makes sense for someone who's lived here since childhood, as I think Marsdin has. Anyone who moved here before, say, age 5 or 6 would have little or no memory of being anything but an American. So I think it's too strict a standard.

    Besides, there have been plenty of natural-born American citizens who've been more loyal to other countries for various reasons, just as there are plenty of immigrants who come here because they renounced any loyalty to their homelands. So as a loyalty filter, it's far from perfect.