Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x07 - "Light and Shadows"

[Hythlodeus]

Okay. Is Shaggy from Scooby Doo a superhero?

to us stoners: absolutely

 

[fireproof78]

I still think there's a difference here between how superheroes tend to be portrayed and Kirk. One significant element of it is Kirk's personal backstory ultimately isn't that important. The important thing is what Kirk does, not who he is.

Let me try to explain another way. Kirk doesn't come across as an everyday guy to me. He presents as someone who has the answers, and is largely unchanged or unaffected by the end of the story.

He reminds me more of Superman than he does Luke Skywalker.

 

[Campe]

He reminds me more of Superman than he does Luke Skywalker.

But Rey? The superest of superheroes. She can do no wrong.

 

[fireproof78]

But Rey? The superest of superheroes. She can do no wrong.

Nope, none whatsoever...

 

[Alan Roi]

I still think there's a difference here between how superheroes tend to be portrayed and Kirk. One significant element of it is Kirk's personal backstory ultimately isn't that important. The important thing is what Kirk does, not who he is.

Did you never watch Court Martial? Kirk has commendations a yard long if they were written out in 6pt type. He's the center of attention of almost every woman he meets. Pretty much all his past girlfriends are among the most crazy smart and beautiful women in the Federation, He took on a Gorn, numerous Klingons and Khan Noonian Singh in battle and both outsmarts them and/or physically beats them. Plus he's got a tragic backstory. He is not in the same freaking galaxy as Captain Everyman by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Alan Roi]

A lot of Trek characters were ordinary people. I'd argue everyone on TOS was other than Spock. On TNG, only Data and Worf were really extra special. On DS9 O'Brien was of course the everyman, but Kira, Jake, Quark, and many of the other characters were really just ordinary folks. VOY really only had The Doctor, Seven, and Kes as her "powers" started to develop. ENT was just a bunch of random, very ordinary folks.

One of the major appeals of the Trekverse - something that sets it apart - is that Starfleet is ultimately a meritocratic organization that anyone can join, if they work hard and study. I mean, it's obvious that all of the cast know more than we do. They're probably 2 standard deviations or more above average in terms of intelligence (since even boy genius Wesley had an issue getting in initially). But fundamentally they're mostly just people, not heroes with unique backstories. You can see this in how bad fanfic is written. People frequently fantasize about inserting themselves into the Trekverse. This stands in contrast to superhero stuff (or Star Wars) where the characters are literally of a different type than us - selected for greatness due to fate - and people tend to idolize the characters more than just relate to them.

Lets look at Checkov. Child prodigy. Graduated with honors at the Academy. Even as an ensign has earned enough respect to be doing both Leslie's and Spock's jobs. Yeah, not ordinary for a 20 or so year old Ensign.

 

[Alan Roi]

It always is.



Pretty much. Pike is apparently one of the most decorated Captains in Starfleet, putting him in the celebrity camp kinda makes his replacement Kirk likely more celebrated than he seems. 100 years on, they're all celebrities (or at least the top few), although I've speculated that was because of the events of Star Trek IV and a romanticization of their "historic 5-year mission" in some media form.

McCoy was a medical innovator as early as the early 2250s, in his 20s, according to Voyager. So he's downplaying his potential celebrity by the time he works on the Enterprise.



As mentioned, Bashir was certainly a celebrity in certain circles in the later years, due to his genetically engineered superiority. That makes him literally a superhero by today's standards (like a super-smart Captain America), but he uses his powers for medicinal good.

And Sisko is like Jesus, or something. Pretty big deal on Bajor.

Rom becomes a reformist Grand Nagus, so Nog and Quark are celebrities by default. Nog also being explicitly the first Ferengi in Starfleet probably made front-page news somewhere.

Curzon Dax is a celebrity to the Trill, Federation, and Klingons, and his successors most likely feel some of this. Worf is a kingmaker, a few times over. He probably has Oscar-winning movies about his life (I know, you mentioned him).

Since DS9 ends the bloodiest war in Federation history, they're all celebrities, of course, but that just means we're watching the transformation.



Archer's crew might be the dullest. I mean, they all have interesting backstories, but I can only think that maybe Hoshi, as an amazing translator and eventual inventor of linguacode might qualify as a celebrity. And Archer, of course, due to nepotism that he molded to his favor into becoming one of the greatest Starfleet officers in history.

Mayweather, Reed, even Tucker as a martyr don't really seem to be best of the best when we meet them, nor do I think they are well-known 200 years later outside of Archer's shadow, based on what we see on the show.

Maybe Tucker's famous for that pregnancy.

Just about every single alien in the cast has something that makes them superior to just about any human being in a given area. That might not make them exceptional among their kind, but it does compared to the viewer. So even Enterprise has Phlox and T'Pol along with Hoshi you add Archer and again, you've got a majority of exceptional characters even if yes, they are the least talented of the franchise..

 

[eschaton]

Did you never watch Court Martial? Kirk has commendations a yard long if they were written out in 6pt type. He's the center of attention of almost every woman he meets. Pretty much all his past girlfriends are among the most crazy smart and beautiful women in the Federation, He took on a Gorn, numerous Klingons and Khan Noonian Singh in battle and both outsmarts them and/or physically beats them. Plus he's got a tragic backstory. He is not in the same freaking galaxy as Captain Everyman by any stretch of the imagination.

I think we mean different things by "everyman." My point isn't that he's some schlub. My point is that the Trek universe is fundamentally one where hard work and determination matter more than fate. Anyone can be a model Starfleet officer if they put their mind to it. That was the whole friggin point of Nog's arc in DS9 - he climbed up from a juvenile delinquent to a dedicated Starfleet officer.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Did you never watch Court Martial? Kirk has commendations a yard long if they were written out in 6pt type. He's the center of attention of almost every woman he meets. Pretty much all his past girlfriends are among the most crazy smart and beautiful women in the Federation, He took on a Gorn, numerous Klingons and Khan Noonian Singh in battle and both outsmarts them and/or physically beats them. Plus he's got a tragic backstory. He is not in the same freaking galaxy as Captain Everyman by any stretch of the imagination.

I think that's fair. I also think that's good. I look at the Enterprise crew as GR's vision of humanity at its finest. Each member of that crew represents the potential humans could reach if they did everything right.

Kirk, as the captain--the leader--embodied that in one man. A hero in every sense of the word. No, he was not "Captain Everyman." He was the best and brightest of what humanity had to offer. And I wouldn't have it any other way. No, Kirk wasn't perfect, but no human is. However, he was perfect when he had to be. He was the best of what we are.

I feel like you can say that about all of the humans on the Enteprise. Chekov's genius was described above. McCoy was the top doctor. Scotty a brilliant engineer. Sulu a brilliant pilot. Uhura was class, elegance, and grace in one person, who was multilingual and highly intelligent. Those that were not up to the standard were given red shirts,and killed.

 

[fireproof78]

I think we mean different things by "everyman." My point isn't that he's some schlub. My point is that the Trek universe is fundamentally one where hard work and determination matter more than fate. Anyone can be a model Starfleet officer if they put their mind to it. That was the whole friggin point of Nog's arc in DS9 - he climbed up from a juvenile delinquent to a dedicated Starfleet officer.

Yeah, we should probably define terms in this discussion.

 

[Alan Roi]

I think we mean different things by "everyman." My point isn't that he's some schlub. My point is that the Trek universe is fundamentally one where hard work and determination matter more than fate. Anyone can be a model Starfleet officer if they put their mind to it. That was the whole friggin point of Nog's arc in DS9 - he climbed up from a juvenile delinquent to a dedicated Starfleet officer.

Yes. What you are calling 'everymen' I, and the people who have made Star Trek, as far as I remember, call Role Models.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Did you never watch Court Martial? Kirk has commendations a yard long if they were written out in 6pt type. He's the center of attention of almost every woman he meets. Pretty much all his past girlfriends are among the most crazy smart and beautiful women in the Federation, He took on a Gorn, numerous Klingons and Khan Noonian Singh in battle and both outsmarts them and/or physically beats them. Plus he's got a tragic backstory. He is not in the same freaking galaxy as Captain Everyman by any stretch of the imagination.

Poor Captain Everyman. He does try, you know? He tries so hard.

 

[Greg Cox]

Uhura was class, elegance, and grace in one person, who was multilingual and highly intelligent.

This is where I point out once again that the widespread notion that Uhura is a super-linguist is fanon, not canon. It was never actually established onscreen until the reboot movie, with regards to an alternate-timeline Uhura. On TOS and in the original movies, she was depicted a highly skilled expert in communications technology. Never once was she established as "multilingual," aside from being fluent in both English and her own native Swahili. Never once was she shown to be fluent in Klingon or Andorian or Romulan or whatever. She relied on the Universal Translator just like everybody else.

And, yes, one can argue that a "Communications Officer" ought to be multilingual, and she may well have been, but this is only speculation on our part. It was never established onscreen, although it's often asserted as an established fact.

 

[TrickyDickie]

She never made the jump to the German speaking countries

Yes, she did. Some details were even altered, especially for the German market:

http://www.nancydrewworld.com/german.html

 

[137th Gebirg]

Okay. Is Shaggy from Scooby Doo a superhero?

Likely not.

Scooby, however, is 10 times as intelligent as Shaggy, so he would definitely qualify as a superhero, at least by canine standards.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Yes, she did. Some details were even altered, especially for the German market:

http://www.nancydrewworld.com/german.html

of course she was published. Just like the German sci-fi pulp novella series Perry Rhodan was published in the US for some time. Doesn't mean that Rhodan isn't an extremely obsure IP in the US. ND never had any cultural impact in Germany or Austria

 

[Nerys Myk]

If saving the day is all that it takes to be a comic-book like character, than Nancy Drew is a superhero as well.

She's a teenage detective. Close enough.

 

[SJGardner]

Poor Captain Everyman. He does try, you know? He tries so hard.

Poor guy just can't catch a break. Back at the Academy, he couldn't even ask his crush out because some walking stack of books named Jim Kirk got to her first. Three times, with a different crush of his each time.

 

[Claudia]

Liked this week's episode better than the last ones... but that doesn't say much.

* red angel

hm... What exactly told them that the red angel has to be from the future?

* Burnham, Spock and family

Not only that Spock has a secret foster-sister, he had a mental breakdown a decade before TOS, and now we can add dyslexia to the list. Nothing against dyslexia, but right now they show him revert to it in times of extreme stress - and how many times did Spock experience stress in TOS, and there was no sign of it? And Burnham figured out that he murmured the numbers backwards back on Vulcan - why this whole S31-trip? Sarek's "I won't lose both my children"... erm... so by turning over Spock to S31 where he doesn't even know what will happen to him he doesn't put him at risk? Doesn't he trust any Vulcan doctor to perform an examination of Spock's mind? What about T'Pau - isn't she around in that universe?

And speaking of universe - Sarek's "I would have married a Vulcan"... at least he must have shared one Pon Farr with a Vulcan priestess (his betrothed, given Vulcan customs to arranged marriages?), hence Sybok... I think it would help if TPTB eventually told anyone where Discovery stands within the TrekVerse. So going from there, is Discovery not set in the PrimeUniverse?

* S31

They all have an agenda - and Burnham trusts all of them? Leland when he promises that Spock will be helped? Giorgiu and her statement that S31 is planning on destroying Spock's mind? And I still don't know what to make of Tyler.

* Tyler, Pike

Loved Pike's chair over badge attitude. And Tyler's little psychoanalysis didn't reveal anything new - it was heavily inferred that Pike felt bad about missing the war/not being able to help. No need to rehash things here.

* small universe syndrome

Mutara sector, Talos IV...

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Poor guy just can't catch a break. Back at the Academy, he couldn't even ask his crush out because some walking stack of books named Jim Kirk got to her first. Three times, with a different crush of his each time.

And someone always gets the last parking spot, too. But at least John Everyman isn't related to anyone!