TUC Dialogue Question

[Timo]

Oh, I'm pretty sure they did notice that. And that's the very point of the whole adventure!

What's the blurb for the episode again? "Tuvok catches a space disease that makes him imagine deaths that never happened".

That's the very nature of the disease here. It makes the victim imagine a death. None of the other deaths we saw were real, either.

That we'd put any weight on Tuvok's feverish rantings is an odd idea indeed. "Flashback" isn't a documentary, it's an explicit delusion. Valtane never dies for real; that's a plot thing. Whether the timing of the events or the exact rank held by Rand or the type of clothing Tuvok opts to sleep in are real is then debatable.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

That's what I think too. Since Tuvok is sick then how much stocks can we put on the accuracy of his memories?

 

[FormerLurker]

Not actually his memories, mind you. The memories in question are the memories manufactured for him by the disease. This is how I've felt about the inaccuracies from the first time I saw the episode. Everything we see in Tuvok's mind is suspect, because of the presence of the disease. The disease may even be responsible for Tuvok contracting the logic-breaking memory disease seen in the series finale, due to how badly it screwed with his recall.

 

[Discofan]

Not actually his memories, mind you. The memories in question are the memories manufactured for him by the disease. This is how I've felt about the inaccuracies from the first time I saw the episode. Everything we see in Tuvok's mind is suspect, because of the presence of the disease. The disease may even be responsible for Tuvok contracting the logic-breaking memory disease seen in the series finale, due to how badly it screwed with his recall.

I guess that also account for why Janeway thought that Sulu didn't look like the picture she saw of him. Or why Sulu liked Vulcan tea!!! I mean, the Vulcans on ENT thought that Earth tea had an intense flavor and that means that Vulcan tea must taste like colored water!!! Why would Sulu like that?

 

[Maurice]

Sometimes some of you get hung up on the most trivial things. The line is fine. Kirk is just venting his frustration.

 

[Marsden]

Uh, the conspiracy was to precipitate a full-scale war between the Federation and the Klingons, which both sides were confident they would win, as opposed to a new peace where both were sure they'd be corrupted by the influx of alien peoples and ideas. In a very real sense, the Khitomer Accords were the toppling of the Klingon Empire, which was doomed either way because empires don't work. Remember "Mirror, Mirror"?

"How long before the Halkan prediction of galactic revolt is realized?"
"Approximately two hundred and forty years."
"The inevitable outcome?"
"The Empire shall be overthrown, of course."
"The illogic of waste, Mister Spock. The waste of lives, potential, resources, time. I submit to you that your Empire is illogical because it cannot endure. I submit that you are illogical to be a willing part of it."

Also, the movie was ripped from the headlines. TUC was directly inspired by the end of the Soviet Union. The massive industrial disaster. The overspending on military forces leaving the country unable to keep its own society healthy. The events of the movie itself are analogous to the August Coup (though the movie was written before the coup attempt) which attempted to end détente and keep the Cold War going. Do you think I just made up an essay on why the Klingon Empire was unsustainable off the top of my head? So I'm a little taken aback by the subtext I infer in your reply, "The Soviet Union was stupid, and we should've had World War III instead of ending the Cold War, because they all deserved to die even if they took the rest of us with them."

Sorry, agree with the conspiracy was a poor choice of words, but the USSR = Klingons analogy breaks down here for me. I know that's what they were going for but Chernobyl did not destroy the USSR and those military trucks evacuated Pripyat just fine. Having a big military doesn't equal can't handle a problem unless the writers were going to force it to. I really think for the amount of wars and battles that the Klingons led against the Federation, keeping back and letting them die was a very reasonable course of action. They couldn't be trusted to not accept the Federations assistance to just set themselves up somewhere else and cause trouble all over again.* I also find it rediculous that loosing their capital would collapse the whole empire. I just feel like it was a poor premise, if it was so easy to defeat the Klingons, why didn't the Federation send a single ship to go bomb their homeworld, apparently they can't tell the difference between a freighter carrying "food and things" and a Federation Heavy Cruiser. It's just too contrived for me. I liked the movie and I like the idea of overcoming differences to establish peace but the analogy is stretched too far for me.

*And apparently that's what happened if Yesterday's Enterprise from TNG is an indication.

 

[Therin of Andor]

In the Voyager episode "Flashback" Tuvok and Janeway relive one of Tuvok's experience about the Excelsior at the time of TUC.

IIRC, VGR gets the timeline wrong. They say three weeks passed after Praxis when it was three months.

Tuvok's addled brain gets several continuity facts wrong, including the death of Valtane (or else his twin brother is still alive at the end of ST VI).

 

[STEPhon IT]

Voyager had a missed opportunity not connecting ST: Generations with Tuvok; I could imagine a feasible story of Tuvok disguised as a human for some reason assigned to the Enterprise (1701-B). A good thought out story of Tuvok's past would be better than what was seen in "Flashback".

 

[Discofan]

Voyager had a missed opportunity not connecting ST: Generations with Tuvok; I could imagine a feasible story of Tuvok disguised as a human for some reason assigned to the Enterprise (1701-B). A good thought out story of Tuvok's past would be better than what was seen in "Flashback".

Actually, Tuvok's twin brother (disguised as a human) infiltrated a group of thieves. Unfortunately, Picard left him unconscious in the path of a baryon sweep and he died... Picard sent his apologies to his family.

 

[Maurice]

Sorry, agree with the conspiracy was a poor choice of words, but the USSR = Klingons analogy breaks down here for me. I know that's what they were going for but Chernobyl did not destroy the USSR and those military trucks evacuated Pripyat just fine. Having a big military doesn't equal can't handle a problem unless the writers were going to force it to. I really think for the amount of wars and battles that the Klingons led against the Federation, keeping back and letting them die was a very reasonable course of action. They couldn't be trusted to not accept the Federations assistance to just set themselves up somewhere else and cause trouble all over again.* I also find it rediculous that loosing their capital would collapse the whole empire. I just feel like it was a poor premise, if it was so easy to defeat the Klingons, why didn't the Federation send a single ship to go bomb their homeworld, apparently they can't tell the difference between a freighter carrying "food and things" and a Federation Heavy Cruiser. It's just too contrived for me. I liked the movie and I like the idea of overcoming differences to establish peace but the analogy is stretched too far for me.

*And apparently that's what happened if Yesterday's Enterprise from TNG is an indication.

It's an analogy, not a literal retelling. The science is bad, as is typical or Trek, and all they had to say was the subspace shockwave wrecked a number of planets (Hell, it his the Excelsior who-know-how-far-out) and there you go, now you have a catastrophe the Klingons can't afford.

 

[TrickyDickie]

 

[DanGussin]

Sometimes some of you get hung up on the most trivial things. The line is fine. Kirk is just venting his frustration.

I suspect that Kirk was also feeling the weight of his impending retirement and already in a bit of a funk. So Spock got the brunt of Kirk's anger.

As far as the Kilingon Empire - IMO - Due to the overall mindset Klingons tend to have as well as the fact that much of the Empire is comprised of conquered worlds, much more of the command and control machinery would be housed on the Homeworld than might otherwise be expected. Due to this a planet wide disaster would be more difficult to recover from than might over wise be.

 

[PhotoBoy]

I wonder if those whales on the wall are George, Gracie and their kids? Or maybe it's a more literal reference, 4 whales = Star Trek 4, the one with the whales?

I suspect that Kirk was also feeling the weight of his impending retirement and already in a bit of a funk. So Spock got the brunt of Kirk's anger.

As far as the Kilingon Empire - IMO - Due to the overall mindset Klingons tend to have as well as the fact that much of the Empire is comprised of conquered worlds, much more of the command and control machinery would be housed on the Homeworld than might otherwise be expected. Due to this a planet wide disaster would be more difficult to recover from than might over wise be.

That would definitely make sense with the Klingon mindset, after all what sensible space empire puts their ship building facilities on a planet where the slaves could take it over and build some sort of predator starship with a super weapon?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I suspect that Kirk was also feeling the weight of his impending retirement and already in a bit of a funk. So Spock got the brunt of Kirk's anger.

As far as the Kilingon Empire - IMO - Due to the overall mindset Klingons tend to have as well as the fact that much of the Empire is comprised of conquered worlds, much more of the command and control machinery would be housed on the Homeworld than might otherwise be expected. Due to this a planet wide disaster would be more difficult to recover from than might over wise be.

I think that argument works for a collapse of the Romulan Empire post-Hobus (particularly as they were already on shaky ground after the Shinzon Coup) because that happened over a very short period of time (apparently just over a day), whereas the destruction of Qo'nos was a lengthy process (fifty years), so while the Klingons might not have had the scientific resources to solve the problem, they could certainly have evacuated Qo'nos and established a new homeworld by then.

 

[Timo]

That would definitely make sense with the Klingon mindset, after all what sensible space empire puts their ship building facilities on a planet where the slaves could take it over and build some sort of predator starship with a super weapon?

Don't you have that reversed there, though? First the Romulans build a super-duper starship (because Romulus has lots of uses for those) with slave labor (because work is for slaves) in a secret base (because why make a base public?). Then the slaves take over (among other things, said supership).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DarKush]

I take it that Kirk was angered by Spock volunteering the crew for the mission, especially in light of Kirk's feelings about the Klingons over David's death. I think Kirk thought Spock overstepped and I guess in a way showed a lack of trust in Kirk (perhaps) to even be able to deal with his own bias, but instead had forced him to confront it at a point when Kirk wasn't ready to do so. But that's my take on it. (Not saying that if Spock hadn't intervened, that Kirk ever would have eventually gotten to dealing with his hatred for the Klingons. He needed that push, and that might have also been part of igniting Kirk's anger).

 

[MAGolding]

I wonder if those whales on the wall are George, Gracie and their kids? Or maybe it's a more literal reference, 4 whales = Star Trek 4, the one with the whales?



That would definitely make sense with the Klingon mindset, after all what sensible space empire puts their ship building facilities on a planet where the slaves could take it over and build some sort of predator starship with a super weapon?

The whales seem to have the profiles of several different species. The one on the top seems to be a sperm whale. So I doubt if they are a family of humpback whales.