Who is the better captain Picard or Jellico

[M.A.C.O.]

I think if the episode were any longer that's exactly what we would see...

At that point Riker's out of the mix but Geordi is still there dealing with Jellico not listening to his objections, Troi is there trying to smooth things over and getting brushed off, the crew is still there most likely still unsure of him, the department heads probably think his judgment sucks for screwing up the rosters. If word spread around the ship Riker was relieved for arguing to save Picard they would lose even more confidence in Jellico. If the plan didn't work and war started he would be in deep shit.

Here's the thing, why didn't he just tell Riker something like "we need to get an advantage on the cardassians and we'll try to make a play for Picard, it's a long shot but our only option." Instead, his approach is like "your captain is dead. give up on him. I'm the captain shut up about it or I'll replace you." He had pretty much declared Picard dead before the mission even began. That is a bad move on his part

Add to the mix that Jellico had been brought in both negotiate and prep for a potential war. After awhile though, Jellico treated the war as unavoidable. Which Riker brought attention to and that talks at this point were only lip service. All while Picard’s life hanged in the balance.

Picard was already a casualty to Jellico.

 

[DonIago]

Yet Jellico's plan did work. And we have no idea how many of the changes he instituted while he was captain did work or may have ultimately worked in the long-term.

Perhaps if Riker hadn't been so antagonistic to Jellico to begin with, the latter would have been more willing to be more open with the former. Riker poisoned the well from the outset. A more professional XO would have requested a transfer or otherwise brought up his inability or unwillingness to work with Jellico.

Imagine, for a moment, if Data had been XO from the beginning. I imagine there would have been a lot more "It'll be tough but we can get it done" and a lot less pointless whining.

 

[Elephant999]

Jellico didn’t have time for second and third chances. His first impression of Riker was not favourable, and when you view the episode looking for that, Riker’s attitude comes across in waves.

He should have adapted to an autocratic Captain, it is the XO’s job.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Yet Jellico's plan did work. And we have no idea how many of the changes he instituted while he was captain did work or may have ultimately worked in the long-term.

Perhaps if Riker hadn't been so antagonistic to Jellico to begin with, the latter would have been more willing to be more open with the former. Riker poisoned the well from the outset. A more professional XO would have requested a transfer or otherwise brought up his inability or unwillingness to work with Jellico.

Imagine, for a moment, if Data had been XO from the beginning. I imagine there would have been a lot more "It'll be tough but we can get it done" and a lot less pointless whining.

His plan working was a gamble. Remember, Troi confirmed that Jellico was basically bluffing his way through the talks. A high stakes game of chicken and the Cardies just happened to blink first.

A Gul like Dukat, would not have blinked. You can't bluff the Borg or the Dominion. The Klingons are likely to instigate a fight and or call a bluff when they see one. Augments like Khan step to any challenge. Bluffing really only works with the Cardassians and the Romulans. Even then, it's flipping a coin.

 

[Gabriel]

His plan working was a gamble. Remember, Troi confirmed that Jellico was basically bluffing his way through the talks. A high stakes game of chicken and the Cardies just happened to blink first.

A Gul like Dukat, would not have blinked. You can't bluff the Borg or the Dominion. The Klingons are likely to instigate a fight and or call a bluff when they see one. Augments like Khan step to any challenge. Bluffing really only works with the Cardassians and the Romulans. Even then, it's flipping a coin.

I don’t know part of me believe he would have blown up those cardies ships but part of me doesn’t

 

[DonIago]

His plan working was a gamble. Remember, Troi confirmed that Jellico was basically bluffing his way through the talks. A high stakes game of chicken and the Cardies just happened to blink first.

A Gul like Dukat, would not have blinked. You can't bluff the Borg or the Dominion. The Klingons are likely to instigate a fight and or call a bluff when they see one. Augments like Khan step to any challenge. Bluffing really only works with the Cardassians and the Romulans. Even then, it's flipping a coin.

Er...wasn't Jellico put in charge of the E-D precisely because of his knowledge of the Cardassians? It sounds like you're saying "his plan worked because he was confronting a race that he was an expert on confronting".

And Picard had his own share of gambles during the run of TNG, so I don't see how that's a fault of Jellico's.

We obviously have no idea how things might have gone if Picard hadn't been sent off on assignment.

 

[Makarov]

Perhaps if Riker hadn't been so antagonistic to Jellico to begin with, the latter would have been more willing to be more open with the former. Riker poisoned the well from the outset. A more professional XO would have requested a transfer or otherwise brought up his inability or unwillingness to work with Jellico.

That's been repeated so often I think people will believe it but it's not in the episode IMO.

Riker naturally seemed annoyed they felt the need to bring in a new captain but he didn't seem to do anything antagonistic. There's no unwillingness to work with him personally at first in the actual episode. They interacted fine and were on the path to working well together until Jellico overreacts over the shift rotations.

 

[DonIago]

One of the first things Jellico asks Riker to do is change the number of duty watches starting that evening. It's not clear how much time passes between Jellico giving the order and the change-of-command ceremony at thirteen hundred, but it's enough time for Riker to speak with the department heads and have them express concerns about the order. Jellico specifically said: "I'd like to change that to four starting tonight." He was issuing an order, not asking for opinions. Instead of soliciting opinions, Riker should have been conveying the captain's order. "I appreciate the difficulties involved, but this is the captain's order."

I think it makes perfect sense that Jellico would see Riker's responding to an order by coming back to him with "I asked other people and they disagreed, so we're not doing anything right now," as antagonistic, and I don't see how Jellico overreacted. He emphasizes that it's an order and to get it done, and then even tells Picard that he's sure it will work out.

JELLICO: How many duty watches does the crew stand?
RIKER: We've a standard three shift rotation.
JELLICO: I'd like to change that to four starting tonight.

JELLICO: I believe we're scheduled to arrive at the Cardassian border during delta shift. Please inform the delta tactical officer that I want to launch a class five probe just before we drop out of warp.
RIKER: I was actually going to talk to you about delta shift a little later, sir. Right now, gamma shift will be on duty when we arrive and I will tell Lieutenant McDowell about the probe.
JELLICO: Is there a problem with delta shift, Will?
RIKER: There is no delta shift yet, sir. I have spoken to the department heads about changing from three shifts to four, and they assure me it's going to cause us significant personnel problems.
JELLICO: So you have not changed the watch rotation.
RIKER: I was going to explain this to you after the ceremony, sir.
JELLICO: You will tell the department heads that as of now the Enterprise is on a four shift rotation. I don't want to talk about it. Get it done. Now that means delta shift will be due to come on duty in two hours. I expect you to have it fully manned and ready when it does. Is that clear?
RIKER: Yes, sir. If you'll excuse me, sir. Captain.
JELLICO: He was your first officer for five years.
PICARD: One of the finest officers that I have ever served with.
JELLICO: Of course he is, Jean-Luc. I'm sure it'll all work out.

 

[Makarov]

That's really mismatched expectations from both parties. As we see all throughout Trek any other captain will expect a varying degree of judgment from the XO. Taking their own initiative to prevent issues even by bending or going against captains orders happened all the time. He wasn't unwilling to execute the order but tried to prevent problems for him on day one. Clearing it up directly at that point is a good move but taking that personally, chewing him out in front of Picard was kind of weak.

This is illustrated again by Jellico's expectations on Riker communicating the status of the probe. No one ever seems to bring that part up because it shows neither of them really made their expectations clear on how they're operating and it's not easily dumped on either of them.

 

[Discofan]

When Chakotay went against Janeway's wishes (Scorpion), he didn't contravene any specific order yet she saw it as betrail. If like Riker he would have disobeyed an order she would have probably killed him where he stood!!

 

[Makarov]

That's a great example actually, Chakotay questioned her judgment and she spent considerable effort discussing it with him rather than flip out and relieve him of duty. Trusting each other was a big thing rather than just pulling rank, she kind of realized she needed people on her side. Couldn't be more different than how Jellico handled it

 

[DonIago]

But Jellico didn't relieve him of duty for his first "infraction". In fact, Jellico specfiically tells Picard that he's sure they'll be fine (maybe he's lying?).Jellico established that he wasn't the kind of captain to discuss his orders, and Riker kept pushing back against him.

 

[Makarov]

He relieved Riker the first time they had a real disagreement. I don't think the shift rotation was something Riker was standing his ground on, he wanted to relay their issues to Jellico and let him decide, we never got RIker's opinion on that matter.

On the shift rotation if he had heard him out I think it would go like this "I fully agree on moving to four shifts but are you aware that if we make this change tonight we will have a delta shift of security officers who all have broken arms from holodeck accidents and a medical shift who are all suffering violent diarrhea. I highly recommend we do not make this change yet until they are treated in order to maintain efficiency"

 

[Discofan]

n the shift rotation if he had heard him out I think it would go like this "I fully agree on moving to four shifts but are you aware that if we make this change tonight we will have a delta shift of security officers who all have broken arms from holodeck accidents and a medical shift who are all suffering violent diarrhea. I highly recommend we do not make this change yet until they are treated in order to maintain efficiency"

I don't think so. Jellico made it clear that he wasn't taking crap from Riker.

 

[Gabriel]

I don't think so. Jellico made it clear that he wasn't taking crap from Riker.

Yeah and if I was the captain and heard crap like that I would put that officer up on charges of attempted mutiny.

 

[Mojochi]

I think if the episode were any longer that's exactly what we would see...

You base that on nothing. No one ever saying anything to that effect, that this man's orders are reckless enough to cause a breakdown etc... You can imagine how things would turn out all you want. I'm not watching that episode. All Troi basically says is people are a little out of their comfort zone

His plan working was a gamble.

The mission is a gamble. Anything anybody did was going to be a gamble. Picard's mission was this shittiest gamble of them all
Nechayev: We think they're gambling that the Federation won't actually go to war over one system
Riker: Will we?
Nechayev: I hope we won't need to make that decision

Basically, everyone on that crew were told that they were bringing in a guy specifically to gamble with these people. Troi was there. She should know that about the man. Of course he's gambling, & it's downright reckless of her to voice such a thing to the XO without considering the effect a suggestion like that could have on him, when the way she worded it sounded like he's completely full of shit, even though he has a better handle on this than Riker ever would have, because Riker would've fallen right into the "They got Picard" trap

Picard gambles too. They chose Jellico, because he knows the gamble better than anyone else... clearly, because he played it to the letter, even accounting for the fact that they'd probably catch Picard... & that's the other reason they chose him over Riker, because Riker is too close to Picard to have objective distance enough to prioritize the mission over him. Jellico might have wrote Picard off, at some level, yes. If he had any sense, he probably wrote him off the minute he left, because everyone should've known this was a trap. He basically tells Picard as much. He could not be a consideration in this situation, because that is a chip in the gamble that the Cardies could lord over them. Digest it however you like, but Starfleet command cast Picard to the wolves. "Go die for the greater good"

He relieved Riker the first time they had a real disagreement.

Uhhh... that wasn't just a disagreement, it was a downright challenge to his entire command. There was no smoothing that over. It was done then, & it had to be put to rest. Riker's 1st disagreement was in not changing the duty watches because he thought is was a bad idea. He didn't even handle that right lol

 

[Makarov]

Even if we dismiss Troi the multiple scenes with Geordi should be telling that there will be consequences from following Jellico's orders in engineering. Why wouldn't we believe him?

And we don't know that Riker himself thought the four shift rotation was a bad idea. He says the department heads had issues with it and there's no delta shift yet

 

[DonIago]

I don't know how long it would take to implement an additional shift, but Jellico is clearly surprised that Riker hasn't done it yet. Either we assume that it would be a reasonable amount of time to do so, strictly speaking going from order->implementation, or we assume that Jellico's being incredibly unreasonable from the beginning. Now granted the delay is because there was a misunderstanding between Jellico and Riker in terms of what exactly Jellico's intentions were, but Riker may have been better off telling the department heads "I'll bring your concerns to the captain, but in the meantime, you should plan for this" versus "Oh, well, let's do nothing until I've brought your concerns to the captain." Riker wasn't proactive about the situation.

 

[Mojochi]

Even if we dismiss Troi the multiple scenes with Geordi should be telling that there will be consequences from following Jellico's orders in engineering. Why wouldn't we believe him?

And we don't know that Riker himself thought the four shift rotation was a bad idea. He says the department heads had issues with it and there's no delta shift yet

He thought it was worth disregarding or delaying an order over it. He certainly thought doing it by that night was not worth doing, because in truth, there's only two ways to handle that order. # 1 you make your objections about it known, on the spot, otherwise, you carry it out & address your problems /difficulties after it's been implemented

It's the same with Geordi. Nothing he's saying in any scene indicates a breakdown or crisis is going to come from these directives. His only gripe is that it is terribly difficult to meet these demands, that he isn't sure why they're necessary

Of course he isn't. He isn't as fully briefed on what's coming as Jellico is. Jellico knows it's difficult. He has to order it anyway

 

[Makarov]

LAFORGE: Yeah, well, I don't mind making changes and I don't mind hard work, but the man isn't giving me the time I need to do the work. Someone's got to get him to listen to reason.

If he's not getting the time he needs then they will likely be cutting corners and something's going to go wrong....